Politicans S.S. Pay

[erco]

Well I certainly walk into this battle ground with great trepidation. But walk in, I must.

First of all Marysgurl, I don't think you need to worry much about changing the subject. It seems that the political arena around here keeps changing venues, from one thread to another.

Now, on to my reason for being here.

I have been reading all of the political posts since the first one. I chose not to respond because I don't ever discuss politics or religion without having the benefit of having the other interested parties within my sight. There is so much that can be derived from seeing ones body language when they are discussing something that is so passionate to them. Therefore, I think it is hard to always assimulate the correct emotions someone might be displaying when it is by the written word only. Especially in a posting forum, such as this.

It is my opinion that amongst the three major players in these discussions, that no one acted anymore responsible or irresponsible than the other.

Until now!

I cannot comprehend how Asso can make such an observation that Bill K's comments replicate that of a troll. It may not have been an actual accusation, but it certainly was suggestive. Especially by calling on the admins of this board to review the situation.

If there were suspicions of him being a troll, why wasn't a time out called before the game ended.

One thing that we can all agree on. He certainly did bow out gracefully and like a gentleman.

[Lesa]

Bill, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I wish you well. I won't delete your account, but you have the ability to do that yourself if you still want to.


Hi Q!   If Hillary runs and unless there's just a really outstanding Republican running against her, then I will definitely be voting for her. I just wish she had run this year instead of waiting for '08.


Scrappy, I too have been curious as to how a Xenite could support Bush and his policies. I know he watches/watched the show, because I have seen him make several posts about Xena at Whoosh's Yahoo group, so I guess it will forever remain a mystery unless he comes back.


Erco, thank you for expressing your views.  While I do understand how Asso could suspect Bill of being a troll, based on his posts here as compared to our dealings with actual trolls in the past, I am also more familiar with Bill's past posting history at our Yahoo group than Asso is.  Based on those Yahoo posts, I do not believe him to be a troll, and I think I should have clarified that in my previous post.

[asso]

   Erco, how is it that Bill's behavior is supposed to have been as responsible as that of Gig and I? As I've pointed out, he's consistantly made false claims, he's made comments that he calls humorous, that are nothing but demeaning, or at the very least, insensitive, he puts words in people's mouths, claiming they said things they didn't, he disregards reason and persists in engaging in sensless bickering, he insults people for simply misunderstanding what he's said, and lastly, he's made unfounded accusations about an entire group of people, as well as making false accusations about Gig. Now, I would like for you to point out one instance where Gig or I did any one of these things. I'm sorry, but if you truly believe that our behavior has been comparable to his, then you have your priorities confused.

   You must not be able to comprehend how I can make such an observation because you must not know very much about how trolls act. Trolls come in a variety of types, they don't solely restrict themselves to spamming boards with vile commentary. Some of them "infiltrate" a community by acting as a legitimate member and then work to find ways of stirring up controversy in order to try to disrupt the normal exchange of ideas and information on the board. I've been a board mod for several boards and I've dealt with just about every type of troll. I've especially had experience with the type I've just described, and can say with a good amount of authority that Bill's behavior fit the criteria. If you were to ask any board admin or mod who has dealt extensively with this type of troll, they will tell you the same.

   Concerning this notion that I implied that bill was a troll in an underhanded fashion, I never imply anything, when I have something to say, I say it, and I don't make a statement that I don't have a sound reason for making. What I did here, was express my concern, and I expressed it quite clearly, and I gave sound reasoning for why I thought Bill could very well be a troll. I left the drawing of any conclusions about it, to the administration, and by the way, I fully accept the conclusion Gig has drawn concerning the issue.

   Yep, I was wrong, being the honest man I am, I have no problem admitting that, and see, that's the point, I have been honest about everything here, and given that, I'm certainly not going to tolerate being given a reprimand, painting me as the bad guy, when all I've done here is point out what should be obvious to all, that troll or not, Bill's behavior in this forum, has been less than reputable, to say the least.

   Now, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "taking a time out before the game ended" but it really doesn't matter, because I was justified in what I did, as well as how I did it, if I have an opinion to express, I have every right to express it when and where I see fit, and I don't need to ask anyone's permission where that's concerned.

   I hate to say it because I'll probably catch even more "flak" for it, but here goes, a couple of you have commented that he bowed out gracefully and so forth, and yeah, I agree, he did, but you know what? If he had just acted more gentlemenly during the entire time he was here, this dispute wouldn't have happened and he wouldn't have felt the need to bow out at all.

~Stu Pidasso

[Lesa]

I think what we have here is a misunderstanding, which is why I sent Erco a PM to clear it up.  With her permission, I forwarded her response to Asso's account, and hopefully he will see it as a misunderstanding as well.

Thank you again for your input, Erco.  I now understand the point you were trying to make.

[asso]

   Well love, here's the thing, I was thinking about it last night and I realized that you had said something in passing about inviting Bill over from the original Whoosh group. I had forgotten that, so the fact of the matter is that I made a stupid mistake and should have never voiced any suspicions about Bill possibly being a troll at all. So, the fact that Erco got annoyed with me for doing so is perfectly fine, because as it turns out, she had every right to take issue with it. I mean, I could be an ass and "split hairs" and argue that my actions were justified because the case I made against him would still hold, were it not for this realization, but I'm obviously not going to, because if I had just thought the issue through a little more thoroughly, then I wouldn't have prematurely tried to make a case against him in the first place. So that's that, well, except that I need Bill's e-mail addy, because I owe him an apology, and I know he won't see it if I post it on the board.

~Stu Pidasso

[Lesa]

I too would like to apologize for letting it stand without clearing it up sooner.  Also, while I stand by my opinions on the subject as well as the facts I have stated, I apologize for anything I may have said in the heat of the moment that might be translated by any reasonable person as a personal attack.  I don't recall any such statements, but it's possible I may have made some.

I am forwarding this page to Bill, so he can read our apologies.

[Gabbin]

I found this interesting little article on Alabama's woes. Very interesting. I edited it just a wee bit. Something to think about in the tax-cutting area as well. It sure shows how slow change can be; and how some fight social change towards acceptance of people outside of their own group.


Top Stories - washingtonpost.com


Alabama Vote Opens Old Racial Wounds

Sun Nov 28, 6:48 AM ET Top Stories - washingtonpost.com


TUSCALOOSA, Ala. -- On that long-ago day of Alabama's great shame, Gov. George C. Wallace (D) stood in a schoolhouse door and declared that his state's constitution forbade black students to enroll at the University of Alabama

He was correct.


If Wallace could be brought back to life today to reprise his 1963 moment of infamy outside Foster Auditorium, he would still be correct. Alabama voters made sure of that Nov. 2, refusing to approve a constitutional amendment to erase segregation-era wording requiring separate schools for "white and colored children" and to eliminate references to the poll taxes once imposed to disenfranchise blacks.


The outcome resonates achingly here in this college town, where the silver-haired men and women who close their eyes and lift their arms when the organ wails at Bethel Baptist Church -- a short drive from Wallace's schoolhouse door -- don't have to strain to remember riding buses past the shiny all-white school on their way to the all-black school.


"There are people here who are still fighting the Civil War," said Tommy Woods, 63, a deacon at Bethel and a retired school administrator. "They're holding on to things that are long since past. It's almost like a religion."


There are competing theories about the defeat of Amendment 2, the measure that would have taken "colored children" and segregated schools out of Alabama's constitution. One says latent, persistent racism was to blame; another says voters are suspicious of all constitutional amendments; and a third says it was not about race but about taxes.


The amendment had two main parts: the removal of the separate-schools language and the removal of a passage -- inserted in the 1950s in an attempt to counter the Brown v. Board of Education ruling against segregated public schools -- that said Alabama's constitution does not guarantee a right to a public education. Leading opponents, such as Alabama Christian Coalition President John Giles, said they did not object to removing the passage about separate schools for "white and colored children." But, employing an argument that was ridiculed by most of the state's newspapers and by legions of legal experts, Giles and others said guaranteeing a right to a public education would have opened a door for "rogue" federal judges to order the state to raise taxes to pay for improvements in its public school system.


The argument plays to Alabama's primal fear of federal control, a fear born of years of resentment over U.S. courts' ordering the desegregation of schools and the creation of black-majority legislative districts.


"Activists on the bench know no bounds," Giles said. "It's a trial lawyer's dream."


Giles was aided by a virtually unparalleled Alabama celebrity in his battle against the amendment, distributing testimonials from former chief justice Roy Moore, whose fame was sealed in 2003 when he defied a federal court order to remove a two-ton granite Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court. They were joined by former Moore aide Tom Parker, who handed out miniature Confederate flags this fall during his successful campaign for a seat on the Alabama Supreme Court.


Arguing that the amendment could lead to higher taxes is a potent strategy in Alabama, which is one of the nation's most lightly taxed states and which resoundingly rejected a record $1.2 billion tax increase proposed last year by Gov. Bob Riley (R), a conservative, to pay for school improvements and lessen the tax burden on the poor. But many blacks view the Amendment 2 opponents' tax pitch as a smoke screen.

Vertia Killings, 72, was riding on a bus that had to be rerouted because of the commotion at the University of Alabama on the day Wallace -- who eventually renounced his segregationist past -- made his stand. Her father, Benny Mack, paid a $45 poll tax and "ate a little less" because of it, she said. Others chose to eat instead of vote.


Black students in Alabama have struggled on some national tests, with 73 percent of black eighth-graders rated below basic competency in math, compared with 32 percent of white eighth-graders. Killings also frets about Alabama schools -- just as schools in many other parts of the country -- steadfastly resegregating. This phenomenon, which is getting increased attention among national education experts, is attributed to a kaleidoscope of factors, including the suburban migration of white families, private school expansion and the rising popularity of home schooling among white conservatives.


"It seems like we're having a reversal," Killings said.


It matters not at all to Killings and her friends that the amendment's opponents say they want to remove the segregated-schools portion of the constitution but cannot abide by guaranteeing a public education and fear mandates for higher education taxes. The people who are most affected by poorly funded schools are the same people who were affected in another era by poll taxes: poor blacks and poor whites.

"I don't know but a few black folks who can afford to send their kids to private school," said Charles Steele Jr., a former Democratic member of the Alabama legislature who lives here and is national vice president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.

This is not the first time that Steele has tangled with Alabama's constitution, a gigantic document that has more than 740 amendments and more than 310,000 words, making it the world's longest, at nearly 40 times the length of the U.S. Constitution. Four years ago, voters repealed a constitutional amendment banning interracial marriage.

The state constitution, which most historians agree was written to protect large landowners and to disenfranchise blacks, is so riddled with antiquated wording that some high school students in Birmingham make an annual trip to the city library for a project known as the search for "the loony laws."

Yet the constitution, with its racist past and its racist present, only grows. On Nov. 2, it was amended three times -- numbers 743, 744 and 745.

Giles has said he would support taking out the passage about separate schools for "white and colored children" as long as the part about not guaranteeing a right to an education is kept.

Ken Guin, the Democratic House majority leader who wrote Amendment 2, is talking about trying again. Next time, he said, he might do it Giles's way.

[Gabbin]

Wow, sorry, that is long. Scary for me.

This article also brings up an interesting point on taxes and the effect they can have on society and education. Low tax, low education. Hmmm.

[Phalon]

<shaking head> Unbelievable.

[Gabbin]

Here Gams, I brought a couple of black-colored Sharpies. Let us get to work helping them simplify that stodgy ole constitution of theirs. Shouldn't take all that long.

[Phalon]

<cracks knuckles. flexes fingers> Hey, can I use a bold red pen, instead?

[Lesa]

They recently closed one elementary school in nearby Benton Harbor (mostly black), and might close another one not far southeast of me (mostly poor).  I'm sick of seeing some schools with their fancy swimming pools, tennis courts, and football fields, while others are still using 20-year-old textbooks and can't even afford computers.

This is just another way that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and they need to pool all that tax money together and divy it up according to how many students they have, not according to what area residents can afford.

Thanks for that article, G.  It's amazing to me that interracial marriage wasn't even legal in Alabama as recently as 4 years ago.