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Post by Mini Mia on Jan 30, 2019 23:11:31 GMT -6
Here is where we will be discussing:
The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks by Rebecca Skloot.
When you have your book, make a post and let us know. We will play it by ear, so the type of discussion will depend on the book. I think this book could work well with a chapter by chapter discussion. I could be wrong, so don't feel you have to do it that way.
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Post by stepper on Jan 31, 2019 16:46:28 GMT -6
I got mine today.
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Post by moonglum on Feb 2, 2019 1:39:18 GMT -6
I have received my copy.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 2, 2019 1:49:59 GMT -6
I've been getting updates on my order from USPS.com, so I expect to get it tomorrow or Monday.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 2, 2019 7:45:04 GMT -6
Dropping off a huge platter of cookies in preparation.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 2, 2019 20:00:22 GMT -6
Nice day to walk to the mailbox ... and it was empty.
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Post by stepper on Feb 3, 2019 15:21:47 GMT -6
Dearly Beloved, We are gathered together in the presence of this here book readin room to discuss The immortal Live of Henrietta Lacks .. uh, what? Ah Blast!! Whelp, I ain’t a waiting none! I’m reaching me a hunk of the oooey-goooey chocolate chip cookie and that’s all there is to it! Besides, if you’ll look across the table, you’ll notice the that lady with the coffee has been sort-a sampling things on her side of the table, and the guy with the tea has been very patient buy even he’s beginning to look like he’s getting hungry.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 4, 2019 2:33:40 GMT -6
You better hope she'll bake up some more, because I got this email this afternoon: "USPS expects to deliver your package by Wednesday, February 6, 2019."
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Post by Phalon on Feb 4, 2019 8:04:18 GMT -6
<The lady with the coffee brushes telltale cookie crumbs from lips.>
He had better hope I don't...because I don't bake.
I'll put in an immediate rush order though, with the Book Discussion Executive Pastry Chef for another batch.
I have to admit, in addition to sampling the cookies, I couldn't resist and have read a few chapters of the book, jotting down some thoughts along the way. I think Joxie's idea of discussing the book chapter by chapter (or maybe a couple at a time) could work well for this book. Maybe, once she gets the book and gets started, our first discussion could be the Introduction, Prologue, and Chapter One?
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 4, 2019 18:31:25 GMT -6
Welp ... It was in the mailbox today, and I've read up to chapter two. My book has a group discussion section in the very back.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 4, 2019 21:52:21 GMT -6
Flipping to the back of the book, the copy I have has a "Where They Are Now" section, an afterword, acknowledgments, notes (kind of like a bibliography), and an index....but no book group discussion section. It's a first edition book, and the date the library received it was Feb 2010 - the book was first printed in 2010, so the copy is from before it even became a bestseller; I'm guessing it hadn't even made the book group rounds yet.
I will go with whatever you guys decide, but my honest feelings about book group discussion questions is mixed. I think they're good conversation starter type things if a group is sort of stuck, but I also think they kind of inhibit or maybe limit a natural type of discussion, kind of reducing it to reading the book to just seeking out the answers to the questions - which is how, I'm sure, BP is now reading "1984" to be followed by "Brave New World" (I snickered when she told me these books were what she needed to get for her college English class, knowing what the final essay assignment was going to be).
Of course, many of my thoughts while reading are random thoughts and observations, which maybe need to be reeled in. LMAO at myself thinking of some of the things I jotted down while reading.
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Post by stepper on Feb 4, 2019 21:52:28 GMT -6
Welp ... It was in the mailbox today...AND And, well, it's possible that the coffee loaded cookie sampler wasn't the only one who sort of read a little bit of the book, or maybe an extra chapter or two. For me, I wouldn't have read more based on what I found in the front of the book. Reading a very short review of the subject on the internet is what spurred several ideas and questions and kept me reading (which I did before I got the book.) But, I think Skloot sets up the subject fairly well, why she's interested in Henrietta, and explains her background sufficiently to prepare us for what might be her point of view of some things. Deborah's Voice IMHO, sets up several questions. Who's entitled to what and if anyone is entitled to monetary compensation, why not the person from whom HeLa originated? But for the life of me, I don't know anyone who fits the category of being an example of a person who profited. Hope that's a good enough for now, but my time is up.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 4, 2019 23:54:50 GMT -6
Oh, hey, Step. I didn't see you there.
I assumed when Deborah said "people got rich off her mother" she was probably referring to pharmaceutical companies, researchers, laboratories and the like. We'll have to see as we read on.
Here are my some of my early Random Thoughts and Ramblings, in order of which they were received in my head. Admittedly, some of this has more to do with how I relate to what I'm reading than it does the actual story.
As someone who reads more nonfiction than I do fiction, I was thrilled to see Skloot's introduction, "A Few Words About This Book", particularly the first two sentences: "This is a work of nonfiction. No names have been changed, no characters invented, no events fabricated." Yes, yes, yes! There is nothing more disappointing to me to learn that something I've read or a movie I've seen that is billed as nonfiction, a "true story", a "biography" or "memoir" is something that is only based (often loosely based) on actual people or events. Even before opening the book, I drilled to see if there were any inaccuracies found or if "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" was dramatized (more on what I found in a second).
In particular a passage jumped out at me as something that an author has as a responsibility in telling a story such as this. One of Henrietta's relatives said "If you pretty up how people spoke and change the things they said, that’s dishonest. It’s taking away their lives, their experiences, and their selves." That's pretty damned big responsibility to uphold, and one I sometimes wonder if other authors (and screen-writers) take seriously.
"Prologue: The Woman in the Photograph" - no matter how I worded my drill to find any inaccurate portrayals in this book, only one came up, and it is in this section that it's mentioned. One scientist took issue with another scientist's estimation "that if you could pile all HeLa cells ever grown onto a scale they'd weigh more than 50 million metric tons". It's an estimate; a hypothesis, and Skloot isn't making it up, she's quoting a scientist and it was verified before publication (and is explained in the "Notes" section of the book). The same scientist that took issue with this estimate also disputes the depiction of how HeLa cells made it into space, also mentioned in the Prologue, and you almost have to wonder if he read any further. That's it - no other complaints or discrepancies about the accuracy of the book were found when I drilled.
Completely random observation about Skloot's biology instructor when she was sixteen - the professor that first set her on the journey to discovering the woman behind HeLa cells, and it didn't matter at that moment in class that this information was going to be on the exam; what mattered most was that he wanted the class to understand...amazing things. I had a teacher like that - Mr. Shaw was my English teacher in both 7th and 9th grade, and though everyone dreaded getting him because he was strict and his classes were harder than the other English teachers, I loved his classes. I can't say he shaped my life in the way that Skloot's professor set her on her path, but I learned more in his classes - not just about English and grammar - but all kinds of life lessons and I remember more about what we learned still than I did from any other teacher or professor I've ever had. (and he'd probably slash grammatical errors with a red pen throughout this entire paragraph.)
Another random observation: In her description of how cells work, Skloot writes "the cytoplasm buzzes like a New York City street. It’s crammed full of molecules and vessels endlessly shuttling enzymes and sugars form one part of the cell to another, pumping water, nutrients, and oxygen in and out of the cell." This engaging, kind of quirky description reminds me of science writer Hannah Holmes; I loved her books "Suburban Safari: A Year on the Lawn" and "The Secret Life of Dust". Textbooks should be written like this. Maybe I wouldn't have hated science so much in school if they had.
Final Thought (before I get to chapter one random thoughts, which I promise are much shorter than those leading up to the first chapter!): The HeLa cells, as amazing as they are, and all the amazing things they did for medicine and science are just things. As many hands as they were passed through the world over, a small percentage of people I'm betting, even gave a moment's thought to that they once actually belonged to a person, or wondered who that person was, and what kind of live they had. Henrietta Lacks had been reduced to a thing. Even her name was taken away, and given a code name as a replacement. How sad is that.
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Post by moonglum on Feb 5, 2019 7:04:10 GMT -6
The Book First, a few words about my copy of the book. It was published in 2011 by Pan Books in Great Britain. It has no club discussion section at the end. Like Phalons copy it has a "Where They Are Now" section, an afterword, acknowledgements, notes and an index. It is divided into three parts. The first two parts have eleven chapters each and the third has sixteen. I started reading last night and read the Prologue, Deborah's Voice and the first six chapters in part one.
Initial Thoughts
1.The Prologue
It's primarily about the author. She didn't really want to be there, in that classroom! Two words on a chalkboard sparked an interest, that fuelled an obsession, that created a need to find out more about this woman. The need to write a history of Henrietta's life and her cells, based on a name on a blackboard. Skloot says she was "completely lost". However, she appears to have developed an instant turnaround on the subject being taught, based entirely on the work of Mr Defler. I had a teacher like that, English Language, Mr Clarke. He encouraged me to write my first 'story'. After he read it he said. "You are either gifted or mad, I am not sure which." 2. Twenty-Five Dollars a Vial The family felt betrayed. Understandable. Henrietta died in 1951. The colour bar was still in existence, very much so. Black people didn't need to be consulted, didn't have to be consulted. So who profits? The simplistic answer is everybody except them. The labs that sell on those cells, the drug companies that manufacture those drugs, the workers in those companies, the shareholders of those companies; the pharmacies, doctors and hospitals that buy and administer those drugs. Finally the sick and dying by the use of drugs created from Henrietta's cells. Not every profit is monetary, however, most of it is. In a capitalist society that's how it is. 1951 was 68 years ago. Segregation meant a large section of the community was 'fair game'. We British have our own shady past which haunts some of us still.
I find this a very difficult book to read, both as a man and as a human being.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 6, 2019 2:08:36 GMT -6
I didn't read the book today ... I had too much stuff in my head that needed to be written down. I learned of 'Low Content' books on YouTube, and I've got ideas flooding my brain.
I think the prologue shows where ideas can come from. How, if not for this one spark of curiosity, this story may never have been told. And it needed to be told.
The first chapter has a lot of things to be irritated about. The way blacks were treated in those days ... and how women were treated back then. How women have had to put up with the things the men in their lives did. How men brought back diseases to their wives after playing around. How doctors didn't care enough about black women to make sure they finished their needed treatments. To take the time to explain that feeling better didn't mean they were cured of the illnesses their men brought back to them.
Part of me wonders if this woman would have gotten this tumor if her husband had been faithful. Just as I wonder if my Mom and her cousin, my Aunt, got their Wegener's Granulomatosis from their husbands who messed around with other women? Could their bodies have started out fighting the foreign particles that their husbands shared with them, and then somehow started attacking its own turf? It's one thing not to care about yourself, but another not to care about the woman who takes care of your home, your children, you, your needs. Yes. I have issues.
It's irritating that, once pieces of us have been removed, it's considered property of the doctor or hospital, and that they can profit off of it without consequences. This woman's children not only lost their mother, but are denied needed money in which to live.
Sorry. I'm in a mood. The Spring Frogs are croaking, and I know Winter isn't over yet.
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Post by moonglum on Feb 6, 2019 4:07:46 GMT -6
Don't apologise Joxie. You have feelings, that's a good thing. I reread what I wrote earlier and realised I sounded biased. It upset me a lot. Let me say now that I don't condone what was done to Henrietta and her family. The fact that it took twenty years for them to find out shows collusion and deception on the part of the people and institutions involved. I can't comment on the relationship between Henrietta and her husband. I have been faithful since the day Vox and I met. However, I realise that, as a man, I'll most likely be painted with the same brush. I've only read the first six chapters but already this book has saddened, sickened and angered me. I realise that in the last 68 years, nothing much has changed. When you look around the world you see governments would rather spend billions on armaments, (there's more profit in it), than on healthcare. I don't think I can read more of this book.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 6, 2019 12:37:10 GMT -6
Based solely on the fictional characters and stories you post here, I'd say it's a good dose of both!
The last book I read before starting this one was "The Good Earth" by Pearl Buck. It's fiction, and takes place in China in the early 1900s. I hated the book. I didn't hate the book because it wasn't a good story or that it was poorly written - I hated it because (in addition to most of the characters, including the protagonist, being horrible people) the mistreatment of women throughout was sickening to me. Although it was a fictional book, the representation that women were considered from the time they were born to be slaves and once married, were the property of men, was an accurate portrayal in that time, culture, and socioeconomic status.
The thing is though, that any comparison I can make to my life in the "here and now" to the "then that there" represented in the time period and place in the book is irrelevant. Do I believe the way women were treated was wrong - most certainly! My personal experiences though, are so immensely far removed from the women in that culture and time that there is no way i can imagine with any accuracy how those women would have felt.
With that being said, it brings me to this...
Just as I found it impossible to imagine how a woman in China during the early 1900s would have felt, I can understand how you'd feel like you can't comment on the Henrietta and her husband's relationship because your experiences in your marriage with Vox is so different then theirs. I can't imagine it either. I can say if I was in Henrietta's place, I would have left Day so f***ing fast his head would have spun, but that's based on my marriage with Hubs. How I can I know I would not have tolerated Day's cheating on Henrietta though, if I have never experienced the same? My life is completely different from hers, and other than being a woman and a mother, I share none of her experiences, so I cannot put myself in her shoes...and have them fit properly.
The same is true of you and Day - you are both men and fathers, but your experiences are completely different. To lump you and he together in those roles is impossible, and no one, including yourself, can paint you with the same brush or in the same light. I could be wrong, Moonglum, but it sounds as if you are trying to put yourself in Henrietta's husband's shoes. Don't. It can't be done with a proper fit.
I didn't think you sounded biased, Moonglum - I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.
I believe that if a person does not feel saddened, sickened, and angered by reading what took place then there is something fundamentally lacking in their moral character - sickened and ashamed also by how race, class, and education dictated how people were - and still are - both treated and judged.
As difficult as these things are to read though (I had some time waiting for BP in the orthodontist's office to read up to the end of Part One), is it a disservice not to finish? If people aren't aware of past horrendous acts does that contribute to attitudes that we find appalling but still continue in the present? I dunno. How are we to change in the present and the future if we are ignorant to the past?
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Post by stepper on Feb 6, 2019 19:00:21 GMT -6
From Clover: "They opened a 'colored' convenience store". It heralds back to colored water fountains, and colored rest rooms. All I can say is, I never personally experienced that situation - a thing for which I am grateful. I was young enough to see open prejudice being expressed but I didn't understand it; even today I don't get it. I understand it happens, but I don't get why it happens. Meaning, I'll have trouble relating to some of the situations.
Chapter 3 "Like many doctors of his era, TeLinde often used patients from the public wards for research, usually without their knowledge." Whether fair or not - it appears this was standard procedure. Henrietta wasn't used as a research subject, but her cells were. Would she have understood? Would she have cared? I don't "feel" an evil intent behind the actions - in view of the standards of the time does it sound to anyone like she was mistreated here?
Okay - yes I've skipped over several potential issues to get here. I believe it's fair to go back and discuss things if anyone wishes and I don't intend to skip something. This just happened to be where I ended up.
I've read ahead - let me say for the record, I dislike Ethyl. A lot.
Woking my way through posts I've missed... It's supposed to change tomorrow, but we've had the AC on for a couple days. It was too warm for Steppet. I hope Vox is feeling better - and that the DR appointment went well. It's always worrisome when your spouse having problems.
Take them as a sign of good things coming - the promise that spring is on the way. They're calling on the sun to stay longer and make it warmer just for you! (It has nothing to do with their reproductive cycles at all.)
I suspect someone will say it better than I, but surely here you are among friends and you are free to express yourself where ever that takes you.
I can't say this will help address your questions but I did have to confirm one thought for myself, and ran a quick drill. The answer I got was: "Cancer Is Not Contagious. ... A healthy person cannot 'catch' cancer from someone who has it. There is no evidence that close contact or things like sex, kissing, touching, sharing meals, or breathing the same air can spread cancer from one person to another."
LOL! I've been invaded by a flock, or two, of Egyptian geese. They hang around, plop down in the street forcing people to drive around them, they poop indiscriminately all over my sidewalk and driveway, and they eat the food I put out for the birds. But they're colorful and fun to watch too. Last evening there were nearly thirty of them in my yard. Today there were two and there's no sign of the rest. I'm thinking the warm weather has fooled them into thinking Spring has sprung and they moved north. I can only wonder if running into the extreme cold still affecting areas north of us will drive them back to the neighborhood. One thing is certain. The weather is changing. Repeatedly.
Sorry my friend, but I didn't see that one coming. I went back to reread what you wrote, and, I don't mean to invalidate anything you're saying, but I still don't see it.
I just read Phalon's post - rather than quote it here - just be certain to read what she said.
There are some things in the book I could have done without. My decision was to just get on with it. I'm not any better for having read all the sections - including the ones that got me P/O'ed - nor do I feel I am any worse off for reading them.
I mentioned the book to the guy in the post office on base - and talked him into reading it too. I guess that counts as my overall assessment of the book.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 7, 2019 13:47:03 GMT -6
Stepper, there are some things in your post I'd like to add to, but I'm going to jump back to Chapter One here for a minute, because it relates to something I read in yesterday's Associated Press. After reading Henrietta's medical history chart in chapter one, I wondered why she either declined treatment or never returned for treatment for various conditions throughout her life. Skloot's explanation, saying it "was no surprise that she hadn't come back all those times for follow-up" didn't really answer the question, other than a vague idea that a hospital was like a foreign place to Henrietta. I wondered if one of the reasons might be a mistrust of white doctors, or really, a mistrust of doctors in general? Reading the article, mistrust very well might have been the reason she, as a black person, didn't seek follow-up treatment, and unfortunately is still why others continue to mistrust doctors today: apnews.com/a2789893ec6f438cac3e89966de64f27One more note regarding Chapter One. It's titled "The Exam" but if it were left up to one woman it would have been titled "OMG!!! Shield Your Children's Eyes and Save Their Souls from the Evils of the Flesh!!! It's Pornography!Yes, Henrietta's self-exam and her husband's affairs caused a woman to get in an uproar when her son's high school assigned "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" as summer reading material - she claimed it was pornography, and instead of just requesting her son be assigned a different book to read (which he was), she did what every irrational self-righteous person would do and made it "her mission" to inflict her beliefs upon others by fighting to get the book banned throughout the entire county school district. Skloot responded by saying the woman was confusing gynecology with pornography. I agree; I thought the description was nothing other than clinical, just as women do breast self-exams to detect lumps, have yearly Pap smears (it was interesting to read that something now so routine was once ground-breaking; at your yearly exams, you don't think about how many lives were lost before what is literally a minute's inconvenience was developed), and mammograms. Nothing pornographical in any of that. As far as Day's affairs are concerned, they weren't discussed in any kind of detail, except the fact that he had them. I never understood the banning of books, which typically happens in schools, and typically brought on by parents who deem books, for whatever reason, to be unsuitable for their children to read. So why not just object to their own child reading the book, and leave it up to other parents to decide what their children read? In this case, the mother's mission failed; "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" was never banned.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 7, 2019 21:50:16 GMT -6
moonglum: There is good and bad in both genders. Don't allow anyone to count you among those that you do not belong with. Be the shining example. Don't take on guilt that isn't yours.
I'm still jotting down thoughts and ideas, but I will catch up asap. I have a Mammogram and Bone Density test tomorrow, so I'm trying to avoid this thread until this weekend.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 8, 2019 10:05:37 GMT -6
I had my yearly mammogram a few weeks ago, but have never had a bone density test. Hope all goes well, Joxie.
Oh!! <-----that's me when something suddenly pops into my head. It doesn't really have much to do with what you're talking about, except the fact that racism is still very prevalent today. I wonder what the Richard Spencers, the white supremacists, neo-nazis and all their ilk who believe races should not mix would think to know that HeLa cells came from a black woman, and those black woman's cells may have been used in medical treatments they've received? As a kind of comparison, I sort of vaguely remember a M*A*S*H episode in which a racist receives a blood transfusion from a black donor, and the guy freaks out. It'd interesting to see the looks on the faces of today's racists to find out something similar - childish sure, but still...'na-na-na-na-boo-boo'.
I don't feel that she was mistreated, and given what is said about her from the people who knew her best, she seems like a caring, nurturing, and giving person, who would have liked to help anyone in whatever way she could. One cannot say for sure though, since she was never consulted (although her feelings on the matter are briefly touched upon in a later chapter, but whether the conversation ever took place is hearsay).
I don't see there being an "evil intent" in using Henrietta and other patients at John Hopkins for cell research without their knowledge. I do see it as deceptive and opportunistic though - a sort of exploitation, especially when you look at the statements of some of the doctors and researchers there: from Howard Jones - "Hopkins, with it's large indigent black population, had no dearth of clinical material" and Gey's self-given title "the world's most famous vulture, feeding on human specimens almost constantly." It seems as if they knew what they were doing could be considered unethical, but they didn't care.
What's not taken into account (at least as far as I've read) is, maybe not Henrietta's, but other unknowing specimens, is their cultural and religious views that a body must be completely whole to be received in the afterlife, to include even blood. These views are prominent in African culture, so have probably been passed down through generations and would quite possibly have been the beliefs of the patients at John Hopkins. Would cells be included in the idea of this "wholeness"? What about the other "human specimens" - what was taken from them? Given that, you'd almost have to assume that some of these patients and their families would have refused to give consent. That's a whole other ethics ballgame in which the researchers struck out.
I've got kind of a different view - I'm not saying it's right for anyone else, but it's what's right for me. I feel there is a need to know our past, however ugly it was, in order to understand how we got to where we are now, and in many ways where we are now is not pretty. Even if it's just us here hashing out some of these questions, I feel there is something to be gained in seeing things from different viewpoints.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 9, 2019 3:06:45 GMT -6
Everything went well. My hips show tiny signs of aging, but it isn't anything to be concerned about now. However ... my day was made. The bone density tech asked me my height ... "4 Foot 8 & 1/2 Inches, but I haven't measured myself since I was in my teens/20s, and the floor sometimes moved me up or down." Well, she told me that when I had the test in 2016, they had me down as 4 foot 8 inches. "Okay." Huh, I got 4 foot 9 inches, let's do that again ... so we measured again. And she got 4 foot 9 inches again. And I said, "I'll take it." (I know I didn't grow, so I'm wondering what went wrong.)
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Post by Phalon on Feb 9, 2019 9:37:01 GMT -6
Congratulations on your growth spurt! Ha, I've gone in the opposite direction. Yeah, people get shorter with age, but my 1/2-3/4 inch height loss doesn't really have anything (or much) to do with getting older.
I joined the military the spring of my senior year in high school; my entry date was not until late summer. Before the physical exam took place in August, my recruiter told me to stretch as tall as I could to meet the height requirement - I don't remember what that requirement was, but he must have thought I was cutting it close. I made it, coming in at just over 5' 2 1/2".
My height had been measured at various times at doctors' offices throughout the years, but nobody ever told me what it was - they just took my height and weight measurements, marked it down in the charts without comment, and only mentioned it if I asked. Weight fluctuates, but height doesn't, so I never bothered asking my height.
Then about 10 years ago maybe, at a yearly exam, the nurse told me both measurements. I'd shrunk nearly half an inch!!! Or did I?
Way back when I was 17 years old at that physical exam, I'd stretched as tall as I could as the recruiter suggested...
...and slightly raised my heels off the scale.
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 9, 2019 19:12:55 GMT -6
Yeah. 4'8-1/2" is the tallest height we got on that hallway door jamb, so I claimed it. But, just how accurate was it? And who messed up when measuring my height, the tech in 2016, or this tech?
moonglum: Let me try this another way ... You are a writer. A great writer has empathy. A writer needs empathy to feel what their characters feel. You take on your character's deepest, darkest feelings, and you take on their highest, most ecstatic feelings. So, don't run from the strong emotions this book brings out in you. Learn from this book what you need in order to bring your female characters to life. You must get inside of the heads/minds of women, and you must feel what women feel ... if you want to be true to your female characters. -- So, write down all of the emotions this book brings out in you, and use it for fodder for your characters. But, in the real world, just be sure to separate yourself from the guilt of all of the things outside of your control. Put it on your characters. Those it applies to. Use what you're feeling in your work to put a spotlight on it, and hopefully bring about change. And show that no two women or no two men are identical.
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Post by stepper on Feb 10, 2019 12:57:07 GMT -6
Finished the book, and I suspect a couple of you have also done so.
The Birth of HeLa was interesting - Blackness Be Spreadin All Inside was too, but it highlights yet another question. Was it ethical to keep from explaining to Henrietta that she was going to end up sterile? I have a hard time relating personally, but a child bearing situation was recently thrust into my circle of friends. Specifically one - she's a lesbian who is married. She's turning 30 soon and has no children of her own. Her spouse has a child and wants another but found out last week that it's not possible as she's out of eggs. The friend who's a bit younger has decided that SHE is going to get pregnant and counts it as being for the two of them. The spouse is not taking the situation well at all. Not that she can't, and not that my friend can and is going ahead with it. It is literally tearing them apart.
I don't want to appear insensitive, but you can't stop nature. Henrietta already had several children (and maybe didn't understand that more was not possible?), the friend has none of her own, so the situations aren't exactly matching.
Dr. TeLinde: "It is well to present the facts to such an individual and give her ample time to digest them...It is far better for her to make her own adjustment before the operation than to awaken from anesthetic and find it fait accompli"
In this case, something went wrong: In Henrietta's medical record, one of her doctors wrote, 'Told she could not have any more children. Says if she had been told so before, she would not have gone through with treatment." But by the time she found out, it was too late.
Things went physically bad for Henrietta so I don't know how, or even if, she dealt with this.
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Post by stepper on Feb 10, 2019 13:04:52 GMT -6
I remember that show. They sort of helped the guy freak out by pretending that they could see that the transfusion had affected him. You have a good memory, and picked a good show.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 11, 2019 1:36:05 GMT -6
Not so sure how good my memory is as I only had a vague picture of it in my head - and I'm not even sure why it popped into my head! - but at least you've confirmed that I wasn't making it up (at the same time as the M*A*S*H episode unexpectedly entered my brain, a similar dusty memory of an "All in the Family" episode came through the cobwebs also, but I could be making that one up entirely, just because it seems like how the bigot, Archie Bunker, would react to receiving blood from a black person). I finished this evening, though I haven't read the "Afterward" yet. I stopped taking notes about halfway through because it was taking time away from reading, and instead marked pages with things I wanted to discuss or had questions about with torn strips of paper. There are gobs of them sticking out of the closed book now! A quick note about Chapter Two "Diagnosis and Treatment... Radium is used in Henrietta's treatment. "It was hailed as a substitute for gas, electricity, and a positive cure for every disease. Watchmakers added it to paint to make watch dials glow..." One of the other books on my list I wanted to read was the nonfiction book "The Raduim Girls: The Dark Story of America's Shining Women", which is about the women who painted the dials of watches with radium: www.npr.org/2017/04/27/525765323/the-radium-girls-is-haunted-by-glowing-ghostsI think a lot of the same ethics questions in "The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks" seem to run parallel to "The Radium Girls" - namely pertaining to profit, although I don't think that the people involved with HeLa purposely hid things from the Lackses or meant to cause any them any harm, and as I mentioned previously, I think Henrietta received the kind of treatment from her doctors that was available at the time. I thought of Gey and his wife Margaret as the MacGyvers of the research lab, fashioning their medical equipment out of salvaged junk. And you know I thought of MacBeth - only it was the Geys dancing around a caudron, "Double, double, toil and trouble. The plasma of chickens, puree of calf fetuses, special salts, and blood from umbilical cords." Not quite Shakespeare, but never-the-less, I'd hate to pop into their kitchen unexpectedly. I think it would have been unethical not to tell her...but I'm not sure she wasn't told; it could be my experience with Mom that leads me to think there was a possibility she was told before treatment. "Warning patients about fertility loss was standard practice at Hopkins, and something Howard Jones says he and TeLinde did with every patient." It could have been a slip, and something they missed, but remember that Henrietta went through all of this by herself. Day wasn't with her when she was told she had cancer, and not even with her went she went in for the the radium treatment, or any of the radiation appointments afterward. She went about her business as usual, and none of her family even knew she had cancer until more than a month after her first treatment. That's a lot for a person to deal with all alone; it had to be damned scary. It's entirely possible she was told, but it didn't register. During various times of my Mom's illness, we'd be talking to the doctors, and you could literally see her face almost go blank when words like "amputation" and "cancer" were mentioned - it was as if all her focus suddenly was stuck on those words, and anything the doctors said afterward didn't register. My brothers and I always made sure at least one of us was present in the room with Mom at her doctor appointments, just so we had all the information that had been discussed. As for Henrietta already having five children, no one but Henrietta can say that was enough for her. Hhmmm...a sad, sticky situation that would be hard to relate to for anyone but the people involved - as any situation involving emotions can never truly be related to except by the people experiencing them. Even your friend can't understand how her wife feels, because she's never experienced having a child herself; to her it might seem if she has a baby it'll be ok with her wife, because in the end, they'll have a child as a couple and they'll both be parents to that child. To the woman who can't get pregnant I suspect it's not the same as it would be if she had a baby herself. Not saying this is how she feels, but I sort of get it - it may sound weird, or even trite, but there is no bond like the bond between a mother and child, no matter how devoted of a parent the other is; it's impossible to describe unless you've given birth to a little person that was growing inside you. The wife has already experienced this, desires to again, but medically can't - it very well may be she's going through depression and even anger at her own situation, and is transferring that anger into her spouse. They may both benefit from couples counseling? I hope they work it out. Cr@p, I don't know if any of that even makes sense; it's way late, I made a million typos, and I keep finding more every time I've edited...and the dog wants to go out again.
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Post by moonglum on Feb 12, 2019 4:15:24 GMT -6
Apologies for not returning to this earlier. I've been worried about Vox. We are taking her blood pressure twice a day, on doctors orders, and it's still on the high side. The increased medication seems to be having some effect. She is not feeling as dizzy as she was. She says she feels ok, but it's still worrying. She had a chest x-ray done yesterday and has another doctor appointment tomorrow. I'll get back to this later.
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Post by Phalon on Feb 12, 2019 12:45:11 GMT -6
Keeping you both in my thoughts, Moonglum, and sending all my best vibes your way.
Joxie, are you still in this, btw?
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Post by Mini Mia on Feb 12, 2019 15:49:07 GMT -6
Joxie, are you still in this, btw?
Yeppers. Just had a rush of ideas that I needed to jot down before I lost them to the abyss. (Learned about low content books and passive income, and it got the juices flowing. And about DBA.)
Moonglum: Vox is in my prayers.
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