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Post by buttcheeks on Aug 12, 2005 14:53:50 GMT -6
of all his creation? If he creates and knows everything and how it works what pleasure does he derive from it all?  |
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Post by Joxcenia on Aug 12, 2005 18:12:52 GMT -6
What pleasure do you get from watching the same episode or movie the 10th time around? Or from reading the same book for the 10th time?
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Post by Lesa on Aug 12, 2005 20:30:09 GMT -6
If I were God, I would be extremely aggravated with all the greed, arrogance, stupidity, inconsideration, violence, etc. in this world, and wonder why I created it. This is yet another reason why I don't believe in the God that Christianity popularizes. God is supposed to be perfect, so why would He create something that isn't perfect?  And if He is so loving and benevolent, they why would He let innocent people starve or die from painful diseases? I do believe there might be a grand design to the universe, but I don't believe the Bible is even close to correct.
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Rejean
Whooshite Candidate
Posts: 95
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Post by Rejean on Aug 14, 2005 2:30:46 GMT -6
"If God didn't exist we would find it necessary to invent Him"--Friedrich Nietzsche
rejean
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Post by Lesa on Aug 14, 2005 4:15:49 GMT -6
I like that quote, Rejean. Belief in a higher power can be very powerful in itself. Not only can it be very comforting to think that an Omnipotent Being cares for us and looks out for us, but it can also be a great way to scare people out of committing horrible atrocities. For example, if people think they'll go to Hell for committing murder, it might make them think twice before doing it. I can only guess that the Romans themselves wrote the Bible to keep people under their thumb, much like our own government officials use it to their advantage today.
On some levels, I equate the Bible with Plato's books about Atlantis. Both are fiction, written with the goal of influencing society, and both became myths that people have believed in for several centuries. When people search for the Ark or Atlantis, they are trying to find proof that perfection can and has existed. But although Plato's reasons for writing his stories were undoubtedly honorable, I have no idea what the motives were behind writing the Bible. While it contains many good moral teachings, it is also too easy for people in power to use for their own personal gain.
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Post by buttcheeks on Aug 15, 2005 8:42:41 GMT -6
What pleasure do you get from watching the same episode or movie the 10th time around? Or from reading the same book for the 10th time?
Would you get pleasure watching people do the very things you asked them not to do when you put them on Earth? Would you be happy watching them using the free will you gave them to do atrocious things? Would you be happy seeing this over and over again. I don't think this Earth is one of God's favorite episodes. If God is perfect and he created us perfect but asked us one little favor--not to touch the one particular tree in all of Eden and we disobeyed then we have to accept those consequences. I've been going around with this myself. He gave us free will but puts something there and tells us not to touch it. Why? Why not just leave it out? Is it some kind of sick joke? Was he bored? Did he want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and that's why he had the tree there all along? Would God have offered the fruit to Adam and Eva at a later date but the opportunity was botched? By eating the fruit the rest of mankind has taken on the original sin of Adam and Eve. We are guilty by association but Jesus came to tell us our original sin is absolved if we believe that God has told us that thru Jesus. But we still are the product of the imperfecit Adam and Eve. All you have to do is look around the world to realize this is so. Tis quite perplexing, I must say. |
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Post by Lesa on Aug 15, 2005 22:48:50 GMT -6
Yes, but you or I didn't touch that tree or eat that apple. And if God were the benevolent Being that He is supposed to be, then He wouldn't have created temptation and made things forbidden in the first place.
If the words in the Bible really did come from God, then maybe He wasn't being completely honest with us, and maybe it is some sick joke that He has played on all of us for His pleasure.
Or maybe He doesn't exist.
Parents aren't always honest with their children, and many of them don't want their children to see them as anything less than perfect either. Many parents also aren't very good at giving unconditional love, and will disown their children if they are not perfect in their eyes, the way that they themselves are supposedly perfect. The Bible's description of God sounds more like those parents, wanting to be perceived as perfect in His children's eyes, and loving us only if we are perfect in His eyes.
At least my parents wouldn't cast fire and brimstone upon me for being imperfect, and they're not afraid to let me see their own imperfections. Yes, we have gotten angry with each other, and we each have had reason for getting angry with each other. But we always forgive, because we love each other conditionally.
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Post by buttcheeks on Aug 16, 2005 17:33:12 GMT -6
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Post by Lesa on Aug 16, 2005 19:53:07 GMT -6
Maybe (a) different omnipotent being(s) created us than the One we have all been told to believe in, and the Bible was the creation of mere mortals. Maybe we are part of an experiment, being given different qualities and free will to see what we will do with it. Maybe civilizations on other planets were created as part of the same experiment, giving them different qualities to study. Maybe God does exist, but we were told certain things to see how we would react to them. We do have free will and cognitive reasoning. Maybe He exists, but we are supposed to question Him and His teachings in order to bring ourselves to a higher level of enlightenment.  I can't believe this is all random, though, with the way everything in this world relies on something else to survive (the food chain, reproduction, etc). It's all very contradictory.  |
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Post by Evergreen on Aug 17, 2005 11:26:25 GMT -6
God loved us enough to give us free will to choose what course we will follow in life-even if it is one that harms us or others. He sacrificed His son for our wrong doings,our poor choices.
To say that God directs all the actions of all people, is not correct. He sets down principles for morality and behavior that are guides to be followed-or not. And our choice to follow Him is a choice. Without choice, worship would be hollow,false. All the terrible things in our world come from a very real presence of evil. I believe He is tired and sorrowful to see the state of our current world. But He still will not abandon any of us-even when we turn Him out.
I have a real issue that also saddens me on how I am perceived by those that claim to love God and be His followers. But I know what my relationship is and no matter how tired I am, I find strength from a never ending source. People, including me, are fallible, God is not.
I give the floor to Zena on this one! What a great discussion.
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Post by buttcheeks on Aug 17, 2005 11:52:52 GMT -6
I was talking with a Jehovah witness (yes, I did let this person into my home). We got to discussing this New Age movement which I ended up looking up in Wikepedia. Anyhow what you are saying here reminds me of the New Age type thinking. This bit of being part of the infinite and in order for us to ascend to a higher level we have to do certain things. Also the idea of an experiment does in fact come to play. That our DNA was implanted by star peoples (okay this is a bit of Whitley in here) but also what I'm getting from people who are into new age stuff as well. Anyhow, the experiment is culminating and it's time to go back to the source type of thinking. Moving up into a new dimension of energy that takes us to a new earth in a higher vibration. I certainly don't understand it. It's rather confusing for me to get a complete grip. Maybe someone who understands this part can chime in.
I do agree here. If Adam and Eve had not partaken of the fruit of knowledge? then we'd be living in a state that we didn't understand. So much of this new age stuff is about this being our last chance, our last incarnation to remember fully who we are so that we can move to the next level - The Golden Age. How can we know what is good if we haven't experienced was is not good.
And your last part there in agreement of a God that runs the gammet of emotions I'd like to understand that better too. God seems bipolar almost. In need of anger management. I do not understand it.
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Mij
Whooshite Apprentice
Mein ungew?hnliches Leben
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Post by Mij on Aug 21, 2005 0:48:08 GMT -6
If God is perfect and he created us perfect but asked us one little favor--not to touch the one particular tree in all of Eden and we disobeyed then we have to accept those consequences. I've been going around with this myself. He gave us free will but puts something there and tells us not to touch it. Why? Why not just leave it out? Is it some kind of sick joke? Was he bored? Did he want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and that's why he had the tree there all along? Would God have offered the fruit to Adam and Eva at a later date but the opportunity was botched? By eating the fruit the rest of mankind has taken on the original sin of Adam and Eve. We are guilty by association but Jesus came to tell us our original sin is absolved if we believe that God has told us that thru Jesus. But we still are the product of the imperfecit Adam and Eve. All you have to do is look around the world to realize this is so. Tis quite perplexing, I must say. Whenever anyone mentions the Garden of Eden, I'm always reminded of something Bill Hicks said..... I think I've learned exactly how the fall of man occured in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, and Adam said one day, "Wow, Eve, here we are, at one with nature, at one with God, we'll never age, we'll never die, and all our dreams come true the instant that we have them." And Eve said, "Yeah... it's just not enough is it?" |
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Post by Zena on Aug 21, 2005 15:37:41 GMT -6
Has anyone ever felt the loving God?
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Post by Lesa on Aug 21, 2005 20:54:46 GMT -6
Hi Evergreen.  I think what's even sadder is when those people who claim to love God and be His followers do exactly opposite of what the Bible teaches. It's supposed to be His job to judge you, not theirs, and I don't think He would have a problem with you. If they perceive you as anything less than the good, caring person that you are, then that is their problem and shouldn't be yours.  Even if I don't share your beliefs on this, I still respect them. I especially respect that you follow your beliefs honestly, instead of twisting things around to suit your needs like a lot of people who claim to follow God do. If everyone who claims to follow the Bible actually did so, then I think a lot of our problems, like hate crimes in the name of 'religion,' would go away. Hi buttcheeks.   Honestly, I think it's good that you listen to different points of view. I do think that you take some of those points of view a little too seriously, but who am I to decide that? I am but a mere mortal in search of my own answers. How could anyone know if this were our last chance? Because of all the wars and other fighting in the world? Maybe we're still in our infancy stage.  Haven't you ever met a person who wants to be perceived as perfect and can never admit when they're wrong? Hi Mij. It reminds me of all those sci fi shows where a computer genius creates the 'perfect' robotic girlfriend, designed to always love and worship him. The robot follows him everywhere and does everything 'she' can to make him happy. Not only does this get annoying, but he is never fulfilled because the robot doesn't truly love him and was only programmed to behave that way. So let's say that he programs in some 'real' emotion and free will, tells her she must still love and obey him, and tells her not to touch his computer which contains all the information used to create her. Thanks to the curiosity and free will that came with her new upgrade, she is especially curious to see why she is forbidden to touch the computer and decides to snoop around a little. She opens the first file and starts to read it. Seconds later, her creator comes into the room and catches her, disconnects the computer, and hides it someplace where she will never find it again. He punishes her for disobeying him, but he can't erase her memory, which now contains just enough information to leave her wanting more answers. Without that computer, she must resort to figuring out what she can on her own. What didn't he want her to know? That he isn't really a god and only used science to create her? She never got to that part, and doesn't have any information to tell her that's the case. She still believes he is a god and fears him as such, and she loves him much in the same way that a battered wife loves her husband, believing that he loves her and only wants what's best for her. What she doesn't know is that he is just a lonely guy who created her because nobody loved him the way he wanted, and nobody appreciated his genius. He wanted to be loved and idolized, and perceived as perfect. Hey, this could make for a good science fiction novel!  Hi Zena. If He exists and His love is felt through the love of others, then yes. If He doesn't exist, then no. |
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Post by buttcheeks on Aug 22, 2005 13:06:00 GMT -6
Would you care to elaborate on your experience? We've been talking for several months now every so often they come over. I'm pretty open minded. Maybe too open minded. I don't know.....  |
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Post by Lesa on Aug 26, 2005 1:47:04 GMT -6
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Post by buttcheeks on Sept 2, 2005 15:37:55 GMT -6
Well.....I thought I basically was. Wouldn't you like to be my friend? ;D  I used to work in a bank for goodness sake- and doesn't that connect us? Even tho we winged rubber bands at each other in between the customers in my early years there. Then I became highly skilled as a sales customer service rep and received a big award of the year for bringing in 35 million bucks to the bank in my accounts. I've handled (back then) over $750,000 in cash and was always diligent and exact about things. Anytime the alarms went off I would go down to the bank parking lot and meet the police to determine if it was a real problem or not. I trained people in exact procedures and traveled hundreds of miles and was always prompt and dependable. When cashiers give me my change back and it's wrong I always make sure that it's correct and they dont' get cheated because I know they can get written up.....  Sometimes I wonder.  But what counts is you're a good person. ;D You ARE a good person, right?   |
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Post by Lesa on Sept 2, 2005 16:54:30 GMT -6
Yes, we're like kindred spirits because we both used to work in banks.  Plus, we used to throw paperclips at each other, so we're quite similar in that you used to shoot rubber bands. I will also correct a cashier if they give me too much or too little, and I do the same with a customer when I'm the cashier. It's amazing how many people will try to give me an extra dollar or even an extra $20 bill when they're paying for their groceries. I could make a nice bonus if I actually pocketed the extra cash they try to give me instead of giving it back to them.  |
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 2, 2005 17:30:11 GMT -6
If no one minds I'd like to interject something here....
I am basing the following on a literal translation of the Bible. That is not to say however that I believe it.
If Adam and Eve had never eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge, WE would not be here now. They would have remained in the garden, living forever, fat, dumb, and happy. No fruit, no knowledge of sex or procreation. No sex no us.
Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. I am by no means an expert on the Bible. In fact my views on organized religion are fairly non conformist.
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 2, 2005 17:31:25 GMT -6
Oh...and by the way. There is a very similar conversation going on in the paradox thread....feel free to join in!
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Post by Lesa on Sept 3, 2005 22:03:11 GMT -6
That's a pretty interesting (and logical) interpretation.  Edit: That paradox thread in OT is pretty interesting as well. I would have posted to it, but my brain is already on overdrive with a million other things right now. |
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 3, 2005 22:06:40 GMT -6
Just seems to make sense to me.....and you know what else? Eveyone always forgets the 'original' Eve. Lilith.
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Post by Lesa on Sept 3, 2005 22:12:46 GMT -6
I seem to recall a Lilith, but I don't remember anything about her. |
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 3, 2005 22:19:05 GMT -6
Well...what I know...and again..I'm not an expert so I could be wrong....she was the original Eve made like Adam...not 'from' Adam....but she questioned God...and he cast her out of the garden.
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 3, 2005 22:23:58 GMT -6
Ok wait...I was wrong...she didn't question God she questioned Adam...and left of her own accord....
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Post by Lesa on Sept 3, 2005 22:35:47 GMT -6
Thus the name 'Lilith Fair.' ;D I knew they named it after a particular Lilith, but I couldn't remember who. It's kinda funny that Adam thought he was superior BEFORE anyone had eaten from the tree of knowledge. But how did Lilith know that they were equal? I guess where they lacked knowledge, she compensated with logic.  |
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Sept 3, 2005 23:47:51 GMT -6
Just goes to show women have always had more common sense.
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Post by buttcheeks on Sept 4, 2005 12:03:58 GMT -6
Kindred spirits?  Maybe.  Um, Adam and Eve were to procreate. Childbearing was made simple and their way of life was easy. But when they ate the apple, God made childbearing difficult and Adam's work toilsome. If A&E hadn't sinned we'd still be in paradise today. The only thing I don't understand is why give them paradise and then put something there and ask them not to touch it. Was God going to show them about it when he was ready in a way that wouldn't harm humanity? Did he put it there knowing A&E would eat of it. Was it necessary for A&E to eat so that we know what it means to not be living in paradise so that we will be happy when it is restored? I guess it's like when you invite someone into your home. You expect them to respect your space and your things. God gave us rules too because he created us and then asked us what we have to do. No I haven't forgotten Lillith. But I don't know too much about her except I know she refused certain positions in the mating area. And that made Adam mad. So she left.....I don't blame her. |
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Post by Lesa on Sept 5, 2005 2:05:44 GMT -6
Yep! Well, people do tend to better appreciate what they have after seeing something like the devastation Katrina has caused. We also have a tendency to take something for granted until we lose it, and we appreciate it even more after we get it back... at least until we start taking it for granted again.  Without the bad, the good wouldn't be as good, and we would probably be bored. Then again, maybe A&E had more happy chemicals in their brains before the original sin and they were easily entertained. I don't blame Lilith either.  I would have left Adam too.  |
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rachel
Whooshite Candidate
Posts: 24
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Post by rachel on May 6, 2006 6:33:14 GMT -6
God is like a sims player I have decided...odd as it may sound.
God created the world - he gave light and dark, day and night, land, animals, plants etc.
Sims player - levels the land, builds the ground, then the house, then the neighbourhood etc.
God created people - Adam and Eve
Sims player - created people and their neighbours etc.
God gives humans the greatest gift they could ever have - free will
Sims player - ignores the people they have created and the people do what they want
God - leaves us alone with free will and the world goes crazy
Sims player - leaves people alone with free will and they end up dying
Strange analogy, but I think the point is that God gave a free will and we abused this power. We chose the darkness, we were tempted etc. We created right and wrong/good and evil through our choices.
Not so say that we're all evil and we shoul die, and not to say that God does actually exist, but from studing a bit of philosophy, that is my 21st analogy to the theory of God
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Maybe. 
