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Post by Siren on May 31, 2006 15:43:09 GMT -6
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Post by Phalon on Jun 1, 2006 23:17:38 GMT -6
Thanks for the link, Siren. Interesting stuff.
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Jun 4, 2006 0:28:08 GMT -6
You up for a bit of page flipping Madam P?
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Post by Phalon on Jul 10, 2006 23:03:36 GMT -6
Warning: The following post is made up of random trivial thoughts that take place within my brain, and therefore it should be taken into consideration that the content may be too infantile or ramble beyond any extent of what a normal brain can comprehend.
This is in regards the link Siren posted; a few things popped out at me when I first read the article: The skeleton was 5 feet and 3 inches, the necropolis was for “warriors…heading the tribes and clans…”, and Siren’s comment that “maybe Xena didn’t make an ash of herself after all.”
And I got to thinking….
Five foot three? Warrior? Why not Gabrielle? Not taking into account the time frame is wrong….was a time frame ever nailed down for Xena; her and Gabs’ travels seemed timeless, spanning the globe and many generations. And of course, there’s that whole fictional thing. Fiction aside, the description fits – give or take an inch or two; a century here or there: Gabs was short and she was a warrior.
So here’s where my mind wanders even further …. Was 5 feet, 3 inches considered short in ancient times? That’s an inch taller than I am. I had a massage close to the time Siren posted the link, and as my masseur bent my body into unimaginable pretzel-like positions, he commented that “it’s nice to work on someone for a change, who’s a normal size”. This made me laugh; you have to find something to laugh at when you’re being bent into pretzel-like positions. Being short, I don’t think anyone has ever referred to me as being a “normal size”. Size, I suppose, like anything else, can be considered relative.
And size being relative - was the woman whose remains were unearthed short, or of “normal” or average size? Have people’s size, like age, increased? Or has it decreased over the centuries? A two-minute Internet drill failed to produce any answers. I posed the question to Hubs, who said height has definitely decreased since ancient times. ‘How do you know”, I asked suspiciouly, with narrowed eyes - he just had that stretching the truth look about him. He stated that in the Koran, Adam is described as being sixty feet tall. (eye roll) And so we're back to fiction…., (and here I pause to apologize to those whose religious views I might offend by that, and some of my rambling comments which may follow).
The subject was pushed to the back burner in my head for awhile until this past weekend, when two different things brought it to the forefront again: Maeve’s post about history in the quote thread, and dinner at a friend’s, who Hubs refers to as “the Amazon”, (she is 6’2” and towers over us both).
“The Amazon” reminded me of Gabs, this whole height thing, and mythology, (cuz that’s what this thread is supposed to be about, no matter how far off topic I am straying). Gabs was an Amazon, (though by default): that legendary and oft thought mythical race of warrior women, whose existence is based in fact, but stories surrounding them stretched - as is their size in a lot of those stories. Often, mythically speaking, Amazons are depicted as fierce warriors of extreme height.
Tall tales, or were they tall women, and was tall back then a towering height of something like 5’6”? Inquiring, childish minds, (mine), want to know. As Maeve, I believe, did a wonderful job of explaining, history is an interpretation of facts. I think this applies especially to ancient history, even the Bible, as facts were passed from storyteller to storyteller, each adding a bit of embellishment for the sake of making a good story even better, until it was finally written down, perhaps hundreds of years later. What we may end up with is a tale with a bit of fact and a lot of Hollywood-like gloss and flash.
The Amazons were featured in a lot of the Greek myths. The ancient Greeks were fascinated by the idea; a race of strong, fierce women was in complete contrast to the way women in their society were supposed to act: passive and dependent on man. I’m assuming the tallness of the Amazons was simply a case of them appearing “larger than life”. Or maybe it is just all Hollywood’s doing: films such as Amazon Women of the Avocado Jungle - yes, there is such a movie, though even to this day I can’t believe I spent the time to watch the entire thing.
And I can’t believe anyone’s made it through this entire post. LMAO. Actually, I can’t believe I spent the time to write this post. Blame it on my Xena-Sista friend, who is unXena-like at a whopping 5’, but who serves fierce, tall cups of coffee on short-order after ten pm.
And damn, I still don’t have an answer to my question: are people taller or shorter today then they were in the 10th century B.C.?
Oh, and Scrappy? The page-flipping: Amazons appear on pages 178-180, 200-201, 205 and 220. Maybe I'll get to them next.
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Post by Scrappy Amazon on Jul 11, 2006 8:07:08 GMT -6
And I can’t believe anyone’s made it through this entire post. *hacking through jungle like post to arrive at destination, a tiny cluttered camp ground in the middle of the forrest* Whew..I made it. To the end of the post that is. LMAO....fascinating questions Madam P. I have read that certain cultures have definately gotten taller over the centuries simply due to their increased access to and consumption of meat. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_heightFor thosae of you who don't wish to skim the link: Madam P...that artical definately answers some of your questions. www.cpe.uchicago.edu/welcome/project_history.htmlThis one has a lot of "blah blah blah" so you'll have to skim a lot. Hope all that was helpul.
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Post by Phalon on Jul 11, 2006 21:55:59 GMT -6
Shhh, Scrappy. Stop hacking so loudly; you'll wake the jungle beasts. You really ought to have that checked out; perhaps a hairball remedy might be in order.
Thanks for the links. I found the section in the first article, titled "Changes in Human Height", or something to that nature, particularly interesting, especially that for some reason that there was an "era of tallness" in the European Middle Ages, when men "above six feet were considered unremarkable". Strange and fascinating stuff.
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Post by Siren on Jul 12, 2006 19:13:20 GMT -6
Very, very interesting stuff, Maeve. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
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Post by Phalon on Jul 13, 2006 23:04:46 GMT -6
Dem bones, dem bones. Glad I auxed; got answers to my questions and learned a new word to boot: auxology. Cool bones. Thanks to you, Maeve, and Scrapula, I can now cross one of my ponderences off my list; I love when that happens. I fibula not.
Other parts as well, I imagine. And I imagine all too much; you know what they say about big feet.
Regarding the Amazons: Some I've read prior in bits here and there, but never in one comprehensive piece. I'll respond later; it's late and I should be getting my old bones to bed. After all, to marrow is another day.
To marrow, to marrow; I love ya, to marrow. It's only a day awwaaayyy....
Gotta do before I do any more damage.
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Post by Siren on Jul 14, 2006 15:24:38 GMT -6
"In Scandinavia, women who did not have children could take up arms and live like warriors. They were called shield maidens and many of them figure in mythology. The Dane, Saxo Grammaticus wrote of a battalion of 300 shield maidens"
300 *ss-kicking women? It boggles the mind!
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Post by Phalon on Jul 16, 2006 22:57:15 GMT -6
The Scandinavian shield-maidens: weren't they the warriors the Valkyrie myths were based upon? And a fine Valhalla to you too.
Re: Big feet and small members, and retractable testes; no little feet there, quite the testes of will-power, and ballsy of anyone willing to try. Ewww - what's the penilety for such bad punning? Whatever the claim, I plead phallus accusation.
The clock is Celticking away, and still unanswered? Irish I knew the tune. Irish I could stop. Sorry, it's a chronic affliction that comes and goes, and the pun-ishment is sometimes unbearable.
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Post by Phalon on Nov 5, 2006 23:30:38 GMT -6
Sticking this here because I could think of no place else where it would fit....and it did come about as the result of a question I had regarding mythology.
This is a question for all you historical types.
If something in the past is proved false, or is no longer held in popular belief or regard, it is still considered history, yes? Maeve wrote way back that facts change. History changes. Sorry Maeve - I'm paraphrasing and doing a very poor job of it. But the idea is there.
If facts change and history changes, then is not the original idea still part of history? People once believed, so when studying those people, it has to be history - it was part of their history.
This came about from a question I had concerning a couple things - the palace in Thebes, and the Delphi Oracle, which while Greek, was "discovered" by a tribe of Ethiopians living in southern Egypt. I know next to nothing about either, but read references to both in a book and wanted to know more. Hubs works with a man who grew up in Egypt, fancies himself as an expert - I'm not sure if he is or not - on Egyptian history; X-Virgin has not made her re-entry into the World of Whoosh yet, so I thought who better to ask a Egyptian question than an Egyptian?
Pfft. Rubbish, he says. It is not historical, it's just a bunch of garbage. I know his response has to do with his devout religious beliefs, and I will not argue with anyone about religion. But I still say that the Delphi Oracle is part of history, because it was once something that was believed in.
Second question....WTF is the Delphi Oracle...exactly. I have just a smidgen of knowledge. I also may have an Oracle fetish...but I still don't swallow it.
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Desire
Whooshite Apprentice
You may conquer with the sword, but you are conquered by a kiss.
Posts: 218
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Post by Desire on Nov 6, 2006 7:19:17 GMT -6
My definition (and no throwing tomatoes at me plz)- I read and thought it was humorous that she was a woman chosen to be some type of ancient pot smoker. At Delphi there were craters that emitted some kind of intoxicating(or whatever you call it) smoke and that was the Oracles room. So she constantly breathed this stuff, and her prophecies were to have been the rantings of a high person.
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Post by Phalon on Nov 6, 2006 23:10:01 GMT -6
So the Delphi Oracle was just a tokin' Oracle.
And Maeve. Wow, great explanation. Thanks for taking the time to write it. And dang, mind if I re-read it a couple times to get the complete gist? (Think once I get the gist, I gist might have a talk with Egyptian boy.)
My brain is too fried right now....and no, I haven't been sniffing the Oracle's craters, though I'm sure some would argue it'd be for the Crater Good.
Just to tired to comprehend all I read....or write, though I'm shamelessly laughing at my own terrible puns. Just shows I ought to be in bed instead of trying to write a readable post.
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Post by mabd on Nov 6, 2006 23:28:59 GMT -6
Tater,
Ha! Just you wait until I finish the thing on Delphi, easy to swallow, but packs a whallop.
mulefipper (the modern version of bull vaulting?)
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Post by Phalon on Nov 6, 2006 23:33:31 GMT -6
Mule-fipping and bull-vaulting. BOLL. Great visuals in my head now as I go to bed; they'll make for some interesting dreams, I'm sure.
Later, Mule Tater
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Post by xenavirgin on Nov 7, 2006 20:03:52 GMT -6
This came about from a question I had concerning a couple things - the palace in Thebes, and the Delphi Oracle, which while Greek, was "discovered" by a tribe of Ethiopians living in southern Egypt. I know next to nothing about either, but read references to both in a book and wanted to know more. Hubs works with a man who grew up in Egypt, fancies himself as an expert - I'm not sure if he is or not - on Egyptian history; X-Virgin has not made her re-entry into the World of Whoosh yet, so I thought who better to ask a Egyptian question than an Egyptian? Hey there Madam P, I'm back. But I'm not 100% sure what you're asking about in this lovely little ramble? I know Maeve and others have answered your question about Delphi, but what exactly did you want to know about Egypt? I can maybe guess that you might be mixing up references to Thebes in Greece and what is (thanks to the early Greek historians like Herodotus et al.) commonly referred to as the city of Thebes in Egypt, i.e modern Luxor. So here's a few bits n' pieces that might have your answer. If they don't just let me know. Greek Thebes was the capital of Boeotia and the Oracle of Delphi was located in the northern part of this area of Greece. Thus Greek Thebes has an understandable and direct link with the oracle. At different times in Classical and Hellenistic Greek times it was likely that the Boeotians were in control of the oracle. Delphi was not considered the oldest oracle in Greece, but it was considered to be the most accessable and accurate. I believe that it was Dodanna in Epirus that was believed to be the oldest in Greece, but not the world, as it was this oracle that was said to be linked to Egypt, the birthplace of oracles. It's patron deity was Zeus. Egypt didn't really subscribe to or use oracles until the Third Intermediate Period - Late Period around about 1000 BCE. There were a number of oracles of greater and lesser standing that became popular in the Egyptian one time capital of Thebes, or No Amun the City of Amun. Understandably, the greatest of these oracles was that of Amun himself, the king of the gods. Indeed during much of this period, the country was actually ruled by the High Priests of Amun through his oracle. Another oracle of Amun dating from the Late Period was the oracle of Amun in the Siwa oasis west of the Nile Valley. It was this oracle that early Greek settlers, mercenaries and travellers in Egypt, believed to be the "mother" oracle of the Oracle of Dodanna (not delphi) and so equated their king of the gods, Zeus, with the Egyptian king of the gods Amun, creating a joint deity (something they really liked to do, lol) called Zeus-Ammon. The Greeks basically believed the Siwa oasis to be the oldest oracle in the world and the founder of their own oracle at Dodanna. Maybe that's the oraclular link between Egypt and Greece you wanted to know about. Gotta go now, it's 2am and I'm up at 6. As ever XV
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Post by Phalon on Nov 8, 2006 7:34:24 GMT -6
Thanks, X-Virgin. I suppose I wasn't clear enough: I wanted to know a little bit more about both the palace of Thebes in Egypt, and separately, the Delphi Oracle. While the palace was referenced a few times in the book I read - once in a tiny connection with the Oracle - what, exactly, the palace - who resided there; what it was used for; and what place it has in history was never mentioned.
The oracle was another question; one pertaining a roulette wheel, to Medusa in relation to the Greek, and African culture, and her accuracy. I just wanna know more.
I'll quote directly from the book - two references, first the historical, then the mythological. And those two words - historical and mythological - brings me back to my original question: Is mythology history?
"The ancient Greeks, at their prime oracular center in Delphi, Greece, used a strange calculating machine to determine the lines of latitude of the globe, lines such as we see today on our maps. The same lines of latitude also gave them the distance of Delphi from the equator, or 38 degrees, 28 ft. north of it. They, then in ancient Greece, also calculated they were three-sevenths of the distance from the equator to the North Pole. Another sacred site at Sardis in Asia stood also on the same parallel, they knew. They figured out that the great temple at Thebes in Egypt lay at two-sevenths of this distance, temple to pole. Their calculator was an apparatus closely resembling our modern roulette wheel.
Their wheel stood in ancient Delphi.....on top of their sacred stone at Delphi. This oval white stone was and is called the navel of the earth, or omphalos..... The wheel which the Greeks then used to calculate latitude had thirty-six spokes. Just as in a modern roulette wheel, a ball was spun around the wheel. The ball stopped at one of the spokes, which were both numbered and lettered. From this apparatus and action, which resembles our gambling apparatus and activity, the Greeks computed latitudes, seasons, and their calendar. Theology is also based upon an accurate calendar of both the seasons and centuries. Travel and navigation, agricultures, education, government, and labor and our very lives depend equally upon an accurate calendar.
Furthermore, the Delphic calculator gave oracular replies to the questions asked by millions of anxious persons of the Delphic priestess, or Oracle..... Thus, the major religious center of the ancient world depended for its authority to rule upon an archaic roulette wheel."
and in relation to Medusa...
"Medusa's story seems to occupy the foreground in one of the world's oldest accounts, that of a long and bitterly fought war between prehistoric Greece and northern Africa. The vague recollections of such a war surface at various levels and were credited by Greek poets and historians. In the western Mediterranean, for example, we hear of an Ethiopian dynasty from southern Egypt, which founded the Greek Delphic Oracle. That temple and priestess were subsequently guarded by an African giant, some warrior prince named Python. Little more now than these definitions remain:
Phythia = the Pythoness, or Delphic priestess, who uttered the responses requested of her by worshipers at Delphi; Python = The Serpent guardian of this of this priestess called Phythia. He was slain by Apollo, who adopted his name, and became Apollo Pythius. The Greeks wiped out an African people...."
It goes on, but my fingers are cramped, and I've gotta run now. Two separate thoughts there.
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Post by Phalon on Nov 10, 2006 0:02:48 GMT -6
I keep meaning to finish this Medusa and Delphi Oracle thing - in my rush to leave I left out key points. I'm always misplacing my key points when rushing. Probably why I locked myself out of the house last week; key points left on the dining room table, right where I saw them the moment I closed the locked door.
Python....asp me a question. No don't; you can't sqeeze answers out of a turnip. I just had the asp pun handy.
Dang, I gotta get to bed. Maybe I'll get to those mything points tomorrow. Meantime, feel free to jump in and save this conversation....anyone.
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Post by xenavirgin on Nov 10, 2006 19:08:05 GMT -6
Python....asp me a question. No don't; you can't sqeeze answers out of a turnip. I just had the asp pun handy. Dang, I gotta get to bed. Maybe I'll get to those mything points tomorrow. Meantime, feel free to jump in and save this conversation....anyone. Gotta head to bed myself Madam P. I'm taking my Egyptology Evening class on a field trip to the Petrie Museum of Egyptology tomorrow morning. But thought I'd throw in a few more bits. I'm bascially guessing that the book you were reading was a "Black Athena" wanna be. Which means they were exploring the idea that the origins of Greek oracles can be traced back to Egypt. And the "Ethiopian" link would probably be because the Greeks were familiar with the LAte Period Nubian (incorrectly denoted as Ethiopian in many books) pharaohs of the 25th Dynasty. And therefore they stretched the connection even further south to Nubia. As for the "palace" at Thebes, that sounds like a reference to Herodotus' description of "100 gated Thebes" A name derived from a misunderstanding about the nature of the several entrance gateways to the huge temple complexes of Karnak and Luxor. He thought they were the remains of gates around the royal capital of the Middle and New Kingdoms. There are actually very few settlement remains in Thebes, and no trace of the royal residence. They might have been referring to the "model" mortuary palace on the west bank temple site of Medinet Habu. Could be, could be not, but those are my thoughts anyway. And as to the question about what history is, or isn't, I'm trying to find some notes from a lecture I gave a couple years ago, that mentions some interesting ideas about that. Anyway, I gotta get going. Nighty night. Lara
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Post by Phalon on Nov 11, 2006 7:14:51 GMT -6
This is so cool: the two of you taking the time required to answer my questions so thoroughly; I am eating it up.
X-Virgin - the book I read was titled "Heroines", which dealt with historical, mythological, (smiling to know the latter is indeed part of the former...I like it when I'm right; it happens all too infrequently in these matters), and literary women. Some of these women had a chapter devoted to them; some just references here and there - a paragraph or two. A lot of it left me wanting more.
Maeve, I love when you explain history - not the events, (though I like those to obviously, or I wouldn't ask) - but history: what it is.
Lady Phalon in Waiting for More
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Post by Siren on Nov 11, 2006 16:43:34 GMT -6
A heady discussion here, ladies. Gams, was this the thread in which you gave me the author and title of that heroines book? I need to get that ordered for my sister's Christmas gift.
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Post by xenavirgin on Nov 15, 2006 18:44:49 GMT -6
X-Virgin - the book I read was titled "Heroines", which dealt with historical, mythological, (smiling to know the latter is indeed part of the former...I like it when I'm right; it happens all too infrequently in these matters), and literary women. Some of these women had a chapter devoted to them; some just references here and there - a paragraph or two. A lot of it left me wanting more. Ah, got the general idea now, I think. It might be that they were actually trying to draw a connection between the queens of Meroe (modern southern Sudan) and the Delphic oracle. The Nubian kingdoms of Napata and then Meroe (from c. 700 B.C.E. to 300 C.E.) were particularly noted for their powerful and influential queens. They were said to have oracular duties and were the high priestesses of the state deities (first Amun and then Mandulis and Apedemak) . One of the queens titles was Kandake, and later classical authors misunderstood the reference to be to a particular queen named Kandake rather than to several different queens bearing that title. It was a popular classical belief that all oracles may have originated with this ancient queen's oracular powers. That sounds like it would fit in with the theme of the book you mentioned. I'm still looking for that quote about history, it's really quite good. And I'm just about to read a newly published article by my current professor titled "The Lie of History" Knowing Professor Hassan it's bound to be a dandy. I've got something of an Egyptological Crush on him, I think he's amazing, and I'm so lucky to be studying with him this year as he'll be retiring in 2 years. Anywho, hope that's alright for now. XV
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Post by Phalon on Nov 15, 2006 23:00:10 GMT -6
Siren - I don't think this was the place I gave the author's name. Maybe the quote thread? And damn, I took the book back to the library last week. It was a good one; one that required a lot of note taking on my part - people, places and a whole list of words I've gotta, and have been meaning to look up. It read more like a text book than a "gotta-sit-and-read-cover-to-cover-in-one-night" type book. A friend and I were talking about those type books vs. a book like "Heroines" the other day....she mentioned a book your sister might also be interested in: "Bitchy Women in History"....or maybe "Bitchy Women in Mythology". Whichever, catchy title, no? Then again perhaps it was just "Bitches and the Mongrels They Bit". The particulars slip my mind; the heat was on, and I can't remember a Jack Russell from a Spayed.
And since I took the book back, I'll have to finish up the Oracle reference in relation to Medusa by mammary. And since I'm getting older, and I hear the mammories are the first thing to go, (HA! They can't go if ya ain't got 'em in the first place, can they? And still feelin' perky in my forties)....anyway, some of the details might be sketchy.
So the Oracle was guarded by Python, or the Oracle is Python with an "ia", depending on how you look at it. Apollo slew the python. Apollo, the Sun God also had a hand in Medusa's killing....a stretch for sure, but true in a 'round about way.
Way back, I wrote a bit about a thing on Medusa I found: she was thought to be a pre-Titan or an around the time of the Titans Sun Goddess, (going from mammary again here). As the gods evolved, and the Greek matriarchal society turned patriarchal with the role of women degenerated, something had to be done with Medusa. Sun meant light and power....no, no, no - can't have a woman in such a position. Sun goddesses were a thing of the past; now there were moon goddess - the moon meant darkness. Change the rays of the sun emitting from her head into snakes, and turn the goddess into a monster. Get Athena, sister to the new and all powerful Sun God, to talk a man into killing the monster, and make him a hero for doing so.
Interestingly, according to the "Heroines" book, Medusa was African, then called Libyan - and was a moon goddess. Python was also dedicated to the moon. Medusa is most often depicted through the eyes of her conquerers - the Greeks - and her dreaded locks, or dread-locks - became snakes.
How the heck does this all tie in to the Delphigh on Crater Fumes Oracle? Shoot, I don't know - that's why I asked. And because I thought the whole thing was interesting, (and so is the author's take on Pandora's box, which really is her box, and not just a receptacle...depending on how uterus look at it).
And X-Virgin, thanks again for your latest information. I think you're right; just bits and pieces here and there in the book, and they relate in small ways, where I am trying to find bigger ways. Oh...an Egyptological Crush? Is that like a Mummy Complex? <slap> That was bad.
Still....Maeve, planning on Delphi prim and proper? Or is the Mule not working again; stuck in the mire? There's a wench on the Gator, ready to give you a pull: a wench who's got to get herself to bed here in a few minutes.
Phalon ~ waiting on her Oracle Fixation
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Post by xenavirgin on Nov 17, 2006 12:01:43 GMT -6
Maeve.... Whoof Madam P, What she said, okay? Only clarification I could add there would be about the importance of the rising of the star Sirius to the Egyptians. In the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Period in Egypt (c. 4000 -2800 B.C.E) the elite religion was in fact Stellar focused rather than Solar, the sun was still a deity and important, but it was the stars that were the focus of the royal cult. What was particularly important to the Egyptians was that they noted over the millennia that the rising of Sirius happened just before the annual flooding of the Nile valley, and they were able to better prepare themselves for the innundation. And as the annual flood was the single most important aspect of life along the Nile, it was considered to be the beginning or start of their calendar year. To quote Herodotus, "Egypt is the Nile and the Nile is Egypt." And Maeve, um who is STP? Last I looked that was a motor oil. Gotta go now, I'm off to a Day with Amanda Tapping tomorrow and I've gotta prep my Religion School class for Sunday morning, so I can relax tomorrow. Hide-ho-kids XV
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Post by mabd on Nov 17, 2006 14:21:51 GMT -6
And then she said:
In 594 BCE, Solon, the Athenian lawgiver, seeking to capture the island of Salamis from Megara and Cirrha, was told by the oracle: First sacrifice to the warriors who once had their home in this island, Whom now the rolling plain of fair Asopia covers, Laid in the tombs of heroes with their faces turned to the sunset He did, and taking as volunteers 500 young Athenians whose ancestors came from Salamis, was successful in capturing the island, that was to prove so important in later Athenian history. Solon never ceased to support and give credit to the oracle for its support in declaring the island was originally Ionian.
In framing his famous constitutional reforms for Athens, Solon again sought the advice of the oracle who told him: Seat yourself now amidships, for you are the pilot of Athens. Grasp the helm fast in your hands; you have many allies in your city. As a result Solon refused the opportunity to become a revolutionary tyrant, and created a constitution for which he, and Athens, were justly honored. Through trial by jury, a graduated tax system and the forgiveness of debts he prevented a growing gap between the haves and the have-nots. But he refused to accept the confiscations of the property of the rich and almost rich, creating an Athenian middle class. He secured an Oath from the Athenian Council of Magistrates that if they violated these laws they would dedicate a gold statue to the Oracle of Delphi of equal weight to themselves.
In 480 BCE, when the Persian Xerxes, returned to finish the job of conquering the Greeks in which his father had failed, the Athenians consulted the oracle. They were told: Now your statues are standing and pouring sweat. They shiver with dread. The black blood drips from the highest rooftops. They have seen the necessity of evil. Get out, get out of my sanctum and drown your spirits in woe.
It was unambiguous. When persuaded to seek advice a second time the oracle gave a way for the Athenians to escape their doom. Athena had approached her father for help for her city. Zeus said that he would grant that: a wall of wood alone shall be uncaptured, a boon to you and your children.
The oracle again advised Athenians to flee: Await not in quiet the coming of the horses, the marching feet, the armed host upon the land. Slip away. Turn your back. You will meet in battle anyway. Oh holy Salamis, you will be the death of many a woman's son between the seedtime and the harvest of the grain. Meanwhile the Spartans consulted the oracle themselves and were told: The strength of bulls or lions cannot stop the foe. No, he will not leave off, I say, until he tears the city or the king limb from limb.
The Spartans withdrew in consternation, wondering which of the two fates was worse.
The Delphians themselves then asked how could Persia be defeated. The oracle replied: Pray to the Winds. They will prove to be mighty allies of Greece.
Events overtook the prophecy when the Persian army assaulted Thermopylae, where the Spartans (notably “the 300”) and allies held the pass against them. The Spartans held the Persians at Thermopylae until betrayed. Refusing to retreat, the Spartans lost their lives, including that of their King (as foretold), but gained immortal fame. The Persian armada then sailed to nearby Cape Artemesium, where the Athenian fleet met them. The Athenian ships fought against great odds, but in three battles managed to hold their own.
It is a historical fact that a tremendous storm then arose at Artemesium, with the most violent winds attacking the ships for 3 days. The Persians lost approximately 20% of their warships and perhaps the same number of transport vessels to the storm. The stormy winds and huge waves did not harm the Athenian ships.
Back in Athens Themistocles argued that the wall of wood referred to the Athenian navy and pursuaded the Athenians to pursue their policy of using their Laurentian silver to continue building their fleet. On the grounds that the oracle referred to Holy Salamis, he claimed that those slain would be Greece's enemies, not the Athenians. For these the oracle would have said "Oh cruel Salamis." His voice carried the day, Athens was evacuated to Salamis and in a following naval battle the Athenian fleet and its allies destroyed the Persian fleet at Salamis, while watched by Xerxes. Despite the fact that Athens was burned by the Persians, her occupants were saved, the Persian risk was ended and the authority of the Oracle was never higher.
In circa 440 BCE, the oracle is also said to have said that there was no one wiser than Socrates, to which Socrates said that either all were equally ignorant, or that he was wiser in that he alone was aware of his own ignorance. This claim is related to one of the most famous mottos of Delphi, which Socrates said he learned there, Gnothi Seauton (Ãíþèé Óåáõôüí): "know thyself!" Another famous motto of Delphi is Meden Agan (ÌçäÝí ¢ãáí): "nothing in excess!" (the Greek expression is a command). Socrates was perhaps only about 30 years old at the time, his fame as a philosopher was yet to come. It is reasonable to suggest that future civilizations continued to valorise Socrates in part because of the Oracle's support of his philosophies.
In 403 BCE, Lysander, the Spartan victor of the Peloponnesian War was warned to beware of: The dragon (serpent), earthborn, in craftiness coming behind him. He was slain from behind in 395 BCE, by Neachorus, who had a serpent painted upon his shield.
In 336 BCE, when the Alexander the Great, Phillip's son, arrived at Delphi to have his fortune foretold, just prior to setting forth to conquer the Persian Empire, the Oracle, uncharacteristically remained silent and could not be prompted to say anything, asking him to come back later. Furious, Alexander the Great dragged Pythia by the hair out of the adyton until she screamed: Let go of me; you’re unbeatable.
The moment hearing these words he dropped her, saying "Now I have my answer"
In 133 BCE, in the War between Carthaginian Hannibal and the Romans, the volcano of Thera created an artificial island. The Oracle predicted both the eventual Roman victory and the appearance of the island, in a notable prophecy that stated: When Trojan race (the Romans) the victory shall win From Punic (Carthaginian) foe, lo! wonders shall begin; Unearthly fires from out the sea shall flash, Whirlwinds toss stones aloft, and thunder crash, An isle unnamed, unknown, shall stand upright, The weak shall beat the stronger in the fight.
In 67 CE, Emperor Nero, who was just 30 years old, and had just killed his own mother, when visiting the Oracle was told: Your presence here outrages the god you seek. Go back, matricide! The number 73 marks the hour of your downfall!
He was angered and had the Pythia buried alive. Nero thought he would have a long reign and die at 73. Instead his reign came to a short end after a revolt by Galba who was 73 years of age at the time.
In 303 CE, when the Emperor Diocletian visited Delphi and asked why the quality of the Oracular utterances had declined, the oracle stated it was as a result of Christian influence. It led to Diocletian's persecution of the Christians, and Christian animosity against the Oracle, which eventually led to its destruction.
In 391 CE, despite the attempt by the Emperor Julian to revive the Oracle by removing Hadrian's plug and to exempt the temple from taxation and protect its priesthood, under the reign of Theodosius I, Christian attacks against pagan temples continued, reaching a head when the Emperor ordered that all pagan temples be shut. The oracle declared to the Emperor in 393 CE:
Tell the king; the fair wrought house has fallen. No shelter has Apollo, nor sacred laurel leaves; The fountains are now silent; the voice is stilled. It is finished.
Next up, other oracles.
wheezzy fipper
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Post by xenavirgin on Nov 18, 2006 14:00:10 GMT -6
X-V, STP is my Sub Text Partner, aka true love, aka domestic partner, aka best additive to my life. (who is now walking about, going "ick," "ick," "ick," inappropriate PDA (public display of affection). Maeve And they say additives arenn't good for you. Little do they know. ;D And I certainly prefer STP to my own Lady Wife's term of endearment for myself, "Mrs Mangalogo". I have yet to figure that one out, and I don't think she understands it any better than I do. LOL XV
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Post by Phalon on Nov 19, 2006 7:08:39 GMT -6
Maeve and Co. - eewww, fall sinus infections; hope your whole house feels better soon. What a window pane; I just shutter to think how such an affliction can rock one off one's foundation. As for you and STP; icky stuff those sinus infections. Feel better.
Uh-oh....the triple Gams? Usually means "tsk-tsk-tsk". Either that, or you and STP are challenging me to a three-legged race? You're on, Sisters. First though, I gotta call up Rent-a-Gam and get a third. My stock of extras is running low - and damn, I can't catch them. Why do the good ones always run off like that?
<Need coffee. Can you tell?>
HA! This is why I took it to the experts; I knew you and X-Virgin would have lots to say. And I haven't been disappointed. Again, to you both, thanks for taking the time to respond and set me straight. Night time reading, I think, and I'll have to pour over your last few posts when I have more time. (Rent-a-Gam opens in 10 minutes, and I've got to book early to get a good one.)
But damn, I thought the roulette wheel thingy sounded cool. Ah-well, maybe in Ancient Vegas; I'll have to do a two minute drill on that, (eye-roll).
<came back and edited to add one more horrid pun; last one - the coffee's done brewing>
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Post by mabd on Nov 20, 2006 14:44:27 GMT -6
Uh-oh....the triple Gams? Either that, or you and STP are challenging me to a three-legged race? You're on, Sisters. First though, I gotta call up Rent-a-Gam and get a third. My stock of extras is running low - and damn, I can't catch them. Why do the good ones always run off like that? (Rent-a-Gam opens in 10 minutes, and I've got to book early to get a good one.) Did you ever see the movie, "A Christmas Story?" The kid gets a BB gun: his father gets lamp which looks like a gam. It's a hoot. Madam P, I would never try to set you straight. Hold that thought, okay? I've found some circular calendars which are associated with the Beaker Culture which was associated with triple goddesses, who are associated with Shamans (who could travel to three loci: just below ground (the transition between life/death); at ground level; and just above ground level (the place of energy for healing and for prophecy). Athene as Athene Cybele was one, Brigit/Bride of Ireland was another. Your Heroines might simply be taking this imagery and trying (incorrectly) to make it fit the classical world -- a world much more familiar than such folks as the Beaker Culture, the Corded Ware culture, and more or less theoretical cultures such as the Bell Beaker and Kurganized Beaker cultures (these groups collectively are dated to the chalcolithic (copper) age (time between neolithic and bronze age). I still think your book is trying to do too much and not make the reader think. And I still think he/she is blowing smoke wrt to Delphi. But that is part of the reinvention of the "faery" culture by the likes of Whitaker in the earlier 1900s. Let me ponder. FIP
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Post by LMV's Old Account on Nov 20, 2006 20:35:06 GMT -6
*Peeps In*
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Post by Mini Mia on Nov 20, 2006 20:38:41 GMT -6
Hey girl! About time you popped back in.
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