O.K. This REALLY PISSES ME OFF!!!!!

[rsine69]

CARROLL, Ohio (Oct. 20) - Vice President Dick Cheney on Tuesday raised the possibility of terrorists bombing U.S. cities with nuclear weapons and questioned whether Sen. John Kerry could combat such an "ultimate threat ... you've got to get your mind around.''

"The biggest threat we face now as a nation is the possibility of terrorists ending up in the middle of one of our cities with deadlier weapons than have ever before been used against us - biological agents or a nuclear weapon or a chemical weapon of some kind to be able to threaten the lives of hundreds of thousands of Americans,'' Cheney said.

"That's the ultimate threat. For us to have a strategy that's capable of defeating that threat, you've got to get your mind around that concept,'' Cheney said.

Cheney, speaking to an invitation-only crowd as he began a bus tour through Republican strongholds in Ohio, said Kerry is trying to convince voters he would be the same type of "tough, aggressive'' leader as President Bush in the fight against terrorism.




"I don't believe it,'' the vice president said. "I don't think there's any evidence to support the proposition that he would, in fact, do it.''

The Democrats called Cheney's comments ironic.

"He has the audacity to question whether a decorated combat veteran who has bled on the battlefield is tough and aggressive enough to keep America safe,'' said Mark Kitchens, Kerry campaign national security spokesman. "He wants to scare Americans about a possible nuclear 9/11 while the Bush administration has been on the sidelines while the nuclear threats from North Korea and Iran - the word's leading sponsor of terrorism - have increased.''

Cheney raised the specter of nuclear attacks at the same time he said Kerry was "over the top'' with remarks during the last presidential debate about daughter Mary Cheney.

"It's the first time I can recall where one presidential candidate tried to drag the family of another into - to make a political point, some kind of policy point in connection with the presidential debates,'' he said in an interview on Fox News Channel, to be broadcast Wednesday night.




Kerry mentioned the vice president's daughter, noting she is a lesbian, while answering a question about homosexuality.

The Kerry campaign has contended its Republican opponents are trying to frighten people with warnings of likely terrorist attacks in the United States and by suggesting America's enemies want Bush to be defeated.

In Des Moines, Iowa, on Sept. 7, Cheney told supporters: "It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today, on Nov. 2, we make the right choice, because if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mind-set, if you will, that in fact these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we're not really at war.''

Cheney praised the recent elections in Afghanistan but said they don't mean the U.S. mission there is finished.

"Does that mean it's over now and we can walk away? No, it doesn't,'' he said. "This is three yards and a cloud of dust. There's no touchdown passes in this business. We'll stay as long as we need to help them train their own security forces, which we're doing actively so they can take over responsibility for their own security.''

[rsine69]

I mentioned this to Gig when we chatted that I'm really disgusted the way the Bush/Cheney campaign keeps exploiting the victims of 9/11 just to get re elected by using fear that another 9/11 will occure if they're not there to save us. News flash!!! They didn't stop the first 9/11, what makes them qualified to stop another one from happening? I'm just so sick of them (Bush/Cheney)using those horrible events on that day just for political gain.

[Lesa]

I agree, Rick. They had sooooooo many warning signs before 9/11 and didn't lift a finger to prevent it, so they might as well be dancing on all those graves every time they try to use 9/11 to gain support for re-election. I keep picturing Dubya shaking hands with Osama, with Osama paying Bush off for taking Saddam out of power and making life hell for so many Iraqis.

Now, as for this article....

"The biggest threat we face now as a nation is the possibility of terrorists...

If that's true, then it's only because Bush and the gang have made it easier for terrorists to recruit others to join them in their fight against us. But instead of focusing on Osama, al Qaeda and the Taliban, he waged war on people that had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Now, not only is the Taliban still wreaking havoc in Afghanistan because of our little detour, but Osama is still out there, more than likely being harbored by Pakistan, whose government is being paid by our government for their assistance in trying to find him. What's more, all of this has given the Arabs a good reason to believe all of that anti-American propaganda that has been shoved down their throats all their lives, and they're taking up arms because they're afraid of us and our warlike ways, and they just want us out of there.

Sure, there are some Iraqis and Afghans that appreciate our intervention, but I'll bet you anything that they're not in the majority, and they're not the ones who have gone to 10 funerals for family members in the past week alone, or had their neighborhoods completely demolished by our bombs. Those are the people that the Bush administration or their friends at Fox "News" don't want us to hear from.

Cheney, speaking to an invitation-only crowd as he began a bus tour through Republican strongholds in Ohio, said Kerry is trying to convince voters he would be the same type of "tough, aggressive'' leader as President Bush in the fight against terrorism.

There are sooooo many things wrong with that paragraph. First, it's invitation-only. Just the other day, Cheney came into our town. One of his stops was a small restaurant, and none of the regulars were even welcome there that morning. If I were a regular at that restaurant, I wouldn't step foot in there again after that.

Secondly, it's invitation only because the newspapers will be reporting on the visit, and their positions are so weak that they don't want anyone asking any real questions that could make it into the paper.

Thirdly, Kerry isn't trying to convice people that he'll be aggressive. It's Bush's aggression that is turning a search for a group of mass murderers into a possible WWIII.

...while the nuclear threats from North Korea and Iran - the word's leading sponsor of terrorism - have increased.''

And then there's that, and I'm sure that Bush's backing out of the ABM treaty or coming up with the "Nuclear Posture Review" hasn't helped matters in that department, either. Without the US being bound by the ABM treaty, all the other countries can reasonably deduce that we plan on building more nuclear weapons, and will therefore feel compelled to build their own, especially when combined with the Nuclear Posture Review:

www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/dod/npr.htm

This capability is key to the role of nuclear forces in supporting an effective deterrence strategy relative to a broad spectrum of potential opponents under a variety of contingencies. Nuclear attack options that vary in scale, scope, and purpose will complement other military capabilities.

So basically we'll be able to drop nukes on any country that might pose a threat. Remember how we thought there were WMD in Iraq because the administration lied to us? Oh, gee, sorry we killed millions of your people, but we thought your dictator had WMD's. I bet we'd be real safe from other countries retaliating after that.

"It's the first time I can recall where one presidential candidate tried to drag the family of another into - to make a political point, some kind of policy point in connection with the presidential debates,'' he said in an interview on Fox News Channel, to be broadcast Wednesday night.

Of course Fox "News" would broadcast that crap. They'll do anything for their buddies.

First of all, Dick Cheney was the first candidate to bring up Mary's sexuality, so if anyone is exploiting her, he is. Secondly, nowhere did I read or hear that Mary was upset about Kerry mentioning her. In fact, she's probably secretly glad he did.

Kerry mentioned the vice president's daughter, noting she is a lesbian, while answering a question about homosexuality.

After Bush was asked if he thinks homosexuality is a choice, he started stuttering and finally said he didn't know. Then when Kerry was asked the same question, he said, "If you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as." Now, considering the fact that Dick had already brought up her sexuality and the fact that Mary has been so open about it, I don't see how that could be interpreted as Kerry exploiting the fact that Mary is gay. So she's gay, so what?

However, his bringing up Mary's name after Bush's sorry answer does show how Bush doesn't really care about the issue, because he doesn't even know how his own Vice President's daughter might feel about it, before trying so hard to ban gay marriage at the national level, a law that would deny her the same rights that every heterosexual has.

The Kerry campaign has contended its Republican opponents are trying to frighten people with warnings of likely terrorist attacks in the United States and by suggesting America's enemies want Bush to be defeated, and replaced with someone they can actually work with again.

Bush has made enemies out of our allies, and those countries definitely want Bush defeated. I'm sure a lot of countries that weren't previously allies would also want him defeated, so they don't have to worry about Bush deciding to drop a nuke on them on a whim.

"Does that mean it's over now and we can walk away? No, it doesn't,'' he said. "This is three yards and a cloud of dust. There's no touchdown passes in this business. We'll stay as long as we need to help them train their own security forces, which we're doing actively so they can take over responsibility for their own security.''

I seem to recall us training the Taliban and al Qaeda, as well as giving them arms, and I sure hope we don't have a repeat with the new Afghan military.

[eirene]

I´m in error now, or was Bin Laden teached by the US Army to fight against the russians ( do you remember the russian-afghanistan war? ). Sorry, but for me it was logical, that one day Bin Laden fight against the states. And who really believes, that Corea wanna attack the USA with a nuclear weapon? ´Cause they are communists?! Sorry again, but THAT is nonsens²!

[rsine69]

My point is that I'll never forget the footage of people who were trapped on the top floors of the WTC, jumping to their deaths. And here are Bush and Cheney playing political games by exploiting that horrible day to try to instill fear in order to get more votes and another four years. That's why I'm so pissed off.

[eirene]

People with fear you can so much better control and manipulating. This fact has used a lot of Knigs, Queens, Presidents and Dictators in every time in the history.

[Lesa]

Hi, Eirene

No, I don't think that just because a country is run by a communist government, that they would want to attack us.  I was drawn to the line where they mentioned North Korea and Iran being "nuclear threats," because we attacked Iraq for supposedly having nuclear weapons (then programs, then plans) when they actually had none, while other countries do have nuclear weapons, some of which could possibly be an imminent threat.

Since we backed out of the ABM treaty with Russia, that sends a message to the world that our government plans on building more nuclear weapons.  I mean, why else would we back out of such a treaty?   Combine that with the Nuclear Posture Review that says we should have the option to drop a nuclear bomb on a country if we think they might be a threat, then I would find it perfectly understandable that other countries would want to build their own nuclear weapons to protect themselves from the threat that our current U.S. government apparently poses against them.

According to the Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), we could drop a bomb on North Korea at a moment's notice, simply because our government thinks they're a threat... Or are they just telling us all that they're a threat, like they told us Saddam was a threat? I'm sure it would be easy enough for our government to make most of the general public believe this, since most Americans have grown up fearing communists. Once I learned what communism was, though, I could never understand why the fear has been so widespread, but then I guess those who fear it just haven't taken the time to learn what that it has more to do with economics than anything else.

SIZING THE NUCLEAR F0RCE (p. 16)

“Immediate contingencies involve well-recognized current dangers… Current examples of immediate contingencies include an Iraqi attack on Israel or its neighbors, a North Korean attack on South Korea, or a military confrontation over the status of Taiwan."

'North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Libya are among the countries that could be involved in immediate, potential, or unexpected contingencies. All have longstanding hostility toward the United States and its security partners; North Korea and Iraq in particular have been chronic military concerns. All sponsor or harbor terrorists, and all have active WMD and missile programs."

I think it's important to note that the NPR has not been signed into law or anything (yet), but "The Bush administration continues to implement provisions of its 2001 Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), including ... designing new nuclear warheads, building new production facilities to manufacture them, and modernizing the nuclear command and control system." [Source]


More about the NPR:
www.armscontrol.org/act/2002_01-02/nprjanfeb02.asp


Edit to add: Yes, our military were the people who trained the Taliban (and Osama) to commit terrorist acts against the USSR during the Russia/Afghanistan war, which coincided with the USA/USSR cold war.

[Bill K]

Hey Lesigner Girl!

If you don't understand why people fear communism, you need to go back and look at the news film of the Berlin wall (and Iron Curtain in general) coming down back in the 80's, and take careful note of which direction all those people are running.......And, to better understand what "just an economic system" can do, see if you can locate one of those crapbox cars that were produced in East Germany by the commie govt, (should be affordable, I saw film of a guy trading one for a pair of blue jeans once) test drive it, then get hold of a BMW or Mercedes, drive that, and that will give you a feel for the difference in the 2 economic systems (Capitalism & Communism).

Bill K

[eirene]

Hi Bill K.
You wanna say me, that you´ve fear before the communism?! That´s so ridiciulous! I´ve ask me today, wether the american people really all that believe, what they´ve teached about the communism. You´ve answer my question. You saw a film about the GDR?! And you REALLY believe, that you know now all about us?! Sorry, but i don´t believe, that do you know anything about us! Of course, it wasn´t West Germany. We´ve got no help from the states like them. Our country was after the WW 2 destroyed - completly. Not as FRG, where the most houses still standing. Of course it was a poor country, ´cause we must payed every year warmoney about 20 billions US Dollars to the russians. Of course it was occupated by the russians for almost 40 years and the german comm. gov. has not nuch to say, ´cause the russians it always said. AND BTW, maybe we couldn´t wear the blue jeans, BUT the was produced in my hometown, like juice, like other clothes, like special parts for BMW, Mercedes and other west german cars.
But to have the nerv to say "I saw a film from a guy...and remind yourself on the Berlin wall" i mean, hey, that´s so ridiculous! And now, think twice before you speak about things, they you didn´t know!

[Bill K]

So Eriene,

Are you telling me that all that film I saw of the wall coming down was backwards, and everybody was running into the Communist sector!?

I did see a news film on East Germany, where a guy traded his little E. German car, you know the ones I mean, right?, to another guy for a pair of blue jeans, which implies that either the car wasn't worth much, or they were awfully nice blue jeans. The point being, if they produced those things on one side of the wall, and BMW's on the other, I know what side I'd rather be on.

That doesn't mean I pretend to know everything about the German people. By the way I am of German decent on my father's side, and my uncle was shot in the leg by a German in the Battle of the Bulge in WW2.

I make no judgements regarding your country or people, and I don't fear communism, since it's such a bad system it collapsed under it's own weight (with a little push from Ronald Reagan) as it was always doomed to do. But I guess you are saying you'd like to return to the good old days of communist rule over there? That's a surprise to me, but to each his own. Just keep that awful economic system, and the lack of freedom and choices it brings, over there, and as far away from me as possible.

I now promise never to refer to your country or it's people again, since because I do not know everything there is to know about you, I am unqualified to do so. In return, you must never voice an opinion on anything regarding the USA, since you don't know everything there is to know about us, and also cannot critize any more of my posts, being that you do not know everything about me. Boy, and I thought communism was a bad system....

Bill K

[eirene]

Point one: I fought for a better Germany, for the right to set my minds free, for the right to go where ever i wanna to go. And NO i don´t wanna have back this system, `cause i´ve payed too much - more then everyone is ready to sacrifice.

Point two: I´ve NEVER in my whole life make a bad jugdement or a thought of fear above the USA or another country. THIS is the reason, why i´ve ever problems with this system. I never saw that system, only the humans with all their strong and weak sides. `cause i believe, that a human is made from dreams, feelings, his hopes, and so on and not from his system in which he live. Understand the nature of the humans and you understand why a lot of things doesn´t work or if then only a short time. If you can answer this, then you know why the communism can´t even work.

Point three: That car is a Trabant. It was made out plastic and cardboard. It was very light and if you have a crash you can repair it with a flatiron. It don´t needed much gas.

Point four: My half family died at the bombnight in Dresden, the other half are polish/germans refugees. All what me drives crazy is the thing that to many people speaks about things, their don´t even know. And it isn´t importend where those people live, they llived everywhere of the world. But if you wanna know some things about the iron curtain or east germany, so feel yourself free and ask me. Then you can learn it from the first hand. Okay?

[Lesa]

Bill, Bill, Bill.   Do you read before you respond?

According to the Nuclear Posture Review (NPR), we could drop a bomb on North Korea at a moment's notice, simply because our government thinks they're a threat... Or are they just telling us all that they're a threat, like they told us Saddam was a threat? I'm sure it would be easy enough for our government to make most of the general public believe this, since most Americans have grown up fearing communists. Once I learned what communism was, though, I could never understand why the fear has been so widespread, but then I guess those who fear it just haven't taken the time to learn that it has more to do with economics than anything else.

Since you seem to have trouble understanding my point, let me rephrase it.  The thought has been ingrained into our people for so many years, that just because a country is communist, then that means they want to blow us up or take us over.

If you don't understand why people fear communism, you need to go back and look at the news film of the Berlin wall (and Iron Curtain in general) coming down back in the 80's, and take careful note of which direction all those people are running.......

Of course people living in communism don't like it, because it's an economic system that's been proven to fail, just like Reagan's system that Bush has been trying to adopt.  But it's not exactly like East Germany was trying to take over the world in the 1980's, and neither have Nouth Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam, or even the USSR; and to my knowledge, no country has ever invaded another country for the reason of spreading communism -- so how exactly are the American people supposed to fear communism? Communism isn't something the American people need to be afraid of. Reaganomics -- now, there's a threat.

BTW, speaking of informative movies, I saw a movie last week called Fahrenheit 9/11.  It was very consistent with facts I already knew, but the movie filled in a few blanks for me.  You might want to watch it sometime.


See, Eirene?  Bill's response is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, concerning Americans' irrational fear of communism.   I'm sorry you had to witness that.

[rsine69]

Um guys? The reason I started this thread was to express my outrage and anger over the way that the Bush/Cheney campaign have been exploiting the victims of 9/11 and people's fears in order to further their own political ambition. I would be just as angry if the Kerry/Edwards campaign had been doing the same thing. I get VERY PISSED OFF when people use other people's pain and suffering to further themselves period. This is not a debate about communisim. If you guys want to debate communisim, I suggest you start another thread or better yet, PM LadyKate. She's from Russia and she of all people on this board knows what it was like to live in the Soviet Union without all the propaganda comming from both sides.

[eirene]

Yeah, i believe it´s better we stop now the discussion.

[Lesa]

You're right, Rick.  This thread has gotten way off topic.  I don't know how this thread got so focused on communism.  That was just brought up as one of several points that illustrate how the administration will stop at nothing to keep Bush in office.

It pisses me off that they keep exploiting all the victims of 9/11, especially when they are the only ones who had the information (and therefore the power) to prevent it, yet chose not to even try.  It also pisses me off that thousands of people -- American soldiers, innocent Iraqi civilians, humanitarian workers, and other innocents -- continue to get killed today, in a war that Bush has had his sites on since before he was appointed as our president.  And it pisses me off that people buy into this administration's lies that are based around many people's fears, communism being just one of many.  Instead, it appears that our government is becoming more and more like a dictatorship, but that is yet another topic, and if anyone wants to discuss that, they are welcome to start another thread to do so.

Yes, let's please get off the topic of communism, both out of respect for this thread's author (Rick), and because only one person who has posted in this thread (Eirene) knows firsthand what it's like.  I would, however, welcome reading a discussion between LadyKate and Eirene in a separate thread, hearing it firsthand from two people who have lived it, each from a different country.  It could open all of our eyes to a lot of things.

That said, what more is there to say on the original topic, but to repeat what we've said?  The Bush administration are nothing but a bunch of [so many names fit in here, and none of them are good] who continually exploit a tragedy for their own personal gain, after, despite all the evidence that it was coming, didn't do a thing to prevent it.

[Freebird]

Why do they say that the war is over in Iraq, when more soldiers have been killed AFTER the war than during?
Eirene, I don't know much about Germany and even though I didn't have anything to do with it, i'm so sorry for everything bad that has happend. I wish that someday EVERYONE will live in peace and the only way to do that in my opionion is to try to understand each other.
Who cares if Cheney's daughter is gay! If she's happy then fine.
Some people are afraid that if you talk to someone who is gay then they will try to make a pass at you.
WRONG. My best friend is gay and she knows i'm not and we don't have a problem with that.
The way I see it is people are people no matter what .
I think that bringing up 9/11 isn't going to help heal what has happend, and shouldnt be used as a tactic for election.

[dixielandyankee]

Freebird, I agree totally when you say 'Who cares if Cheyney's daughter is gay' but I think the answer to that is...lots of people in America have a problem with gay people and that's probably why its being brought up. I don't know a lot about US politics but I do know that the US is a huge country, made up of lots of different people and that whilst some people would welcome a politician who supports gay rights, others see it as an abomination and would rather not see someone who supports gay rights in a position of influence.

Its all crap to me...as a person who believes everyone should be able to express their sexuality as long as it doesn't harm anyone else... but I do see the tactical advantage of mentioning it a political debate.

[Freebird]

I don't, I think it's childish and stupid.
I would NEVER use someones child like that . I don't care how old she is, she's still their child. The debate is suposed to be between 2 adults not their families.
Did anyone stop to think how she feels about being used like that?
I beleave that someone's sexuality is their own business.
Nobody should judge someone without looking in there own closet ( so to speak) first.
Everyone is entitaled to there own opionion.
I'm sure if we wanted to we could find something about everyone in the WORLD that someone wouldn't agree with.
That's what makes us ALL beautiful, special and unique.
Because we are all different.
I'm going to bed now, goodnight all.

[Lesa]

Cheney mentioned Mary's sexual preference numerous times while campaigning four years ago, for his own political reasons.  As far as I can tell, his reason for mentioning it is so the dems wouldn't have any fuel to say he was hiding it.

Four years later, after it is widely known, here is the context in which Kerry brought her name up:

QUESTION:  Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

DUBYA:  You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know.

[snipped for length]

I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman.

I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution.

[snipped for length]

[Kerry is asked the same question]

KERRY:  We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.

And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them.

I think we have to respect that.

[snipped for length]

Read the transcript here

I do not see Kerry's mention of Mary's sexuality as an attack on Mary.  I do, however, think it shows how Dubya considers his own VP's daughter to be a second-class citizen who shouldn't have the same rights as a heterosexual.  Quite frankly, I think it would've been fun if Kerry had started his answer with a question to Bush, saying something like, "What do you mean you don't know?  Haven't you ever talked to Mr Cheney's daughter to see what she has to say about the subject?  I'm sure Mr Cheney has, which would explain why he's against the amendment that you tried so hard to pass."  But he took a less confrontational approach, and just led in with, "I think if you talk to Dick Cheney's daughter..."  Unfortunately, I think his point got lost in the mix.

You know, it's interesting how at the end of the vice presidential debate, both candidates' families were up on stage with them — except for Mary, who was nowhere to be seen.  Seeing as how the republicans have made such a big deal over Kerry's statement, despite the fact that Dick mentioned her sexuality first, and seeing as how Mary is actively involved in the campaign for her father's re-election, this tells me that the republican campaign managers (and probably even Dick himself) are the ones who have a problem with Mary's sexuality.

[eirene]

Lesigner said:

I would, however, welcome reading a discussion between LadyKate and Eirene in a separate thread, hearing it firsthand from two people who have lived it, each from a different country.  It could open all of our eyes to a lot of things.

I´m agree with a new topic, so far LadyKate want it too... i´ve no problems to talk with you about East Germany.

[Lesa]

[rsine69]

Getting back on topic, it's not just the Bush/Cheney campaign I'm made at (I refuse to get into a political debate since it's clearly gotten nasty on another thread), but the fact that many people have been exploiting the victims of 9/11. I was watching this commercial that was trying to sell these 9/11 silver coins for a special low price of $19.95.

[Lesa]

I saw that too.

[Freebird]

I don't think that it should be allowed to sell things like that unless the victims families are getting a equal"cut" of it.
If I had lost a family member or friend I would be really upset with people "selling" the horror of 9/11.
I didn't know anyone there but I still cried.
I felt and still do feel like all the horror movies from Hollywood can't
compare to what has happend. I wish I could turn back time (but still remember) to the day before it happend and warn them.
But who would listen?
They would think I was a nut case or in on it.
1 day? Well ,they had 7 years before it happend so 1 day wouldn't make a difference, now would it!