|
Post by robinton on Aug 20, 2012 8:11:58 GMT -6
I recently graduated from a local university with a BS in Psychology and a minor in Women Studies. In my women studies classes, I have done several projects on the topic of Xena. From a feminist point of view, I have argued both side of weather or not the TV show, "Xena: Warrior Princess" is a show that promotes feminism.
Pro-Feminist argument: The show portrays a female lead who is strong, both in her own beliefs and physically. She never shows a "need" for a male figure to come out and save her. When she does have a love interest, it is typically Xena who comes to his rescue. She never really does any "man bashing", and has, on several occasions, corrected views that all men are evil. Even while the character Xena was pregnant, she did not stop or slow down. During that time, when her own mother was attempting to get a man to marry Xena (for the child’s sake), Xena used a song (popular with feminist) to explain that one was not needed. That Xena can and will raise this child on her own, and on her terms.
Anti-feminist argument: The time that Xena lives in is depicted as a very hard time to live in. She is constantly in battle against enemies that are armed with various sharp weapons. (swords, knifes, spears, ect) All of the men that we see are usually dressed in some type of full body armor. If we are to take an objective look at the dress of the females in the world of Xena, we see that the women are typically dressed in very little clothing. One would think that the females of this world would want the same armor that the men wear. This, to me, is seen as sex appeal based on the makers of the TV show. It is also notable to point out that all of the women I see in Xena (with the exception of one episode) have a body type that is consistent with the western civilizations ideals of what beauty is.
What do you all think? I have been given different opinions by various teachers on the ideals of Xena: The Warrior Princess as a feminist show. Some say yes, most say no. My school also stressed the idea that the instructors were NOT all knowing teaching gods, and that it is always best to question everything. That is how leaning really begins.
Side note: While at my university, I worked a lot of the LGBT (lesbian - Gay - Bi - Trans) group. From what I can tell with the discussions I have had with the members of that group, there is a very strong dislike for the show Xena. Seems a lot of lesbians are offended on two counts. 1) Xena is not and never was a lesbian. That word means, in essence, a female that is attracted to other females. The series has shown that Xena and Gabrielle are attracted to men. That would put them in the Bi category, not the lesbian. (If you were to take the subtext in the show that way) 2) At the series end, they killed off Xena in a horrible, bloody, and violent way. In TV shows, this is a common plot device used to show that a gay or lesbian relationship is evil and wrong. In most gay or lesbian relationships portrayed on TV, One of them will either turn evil and go on a murderous rampage, or one will die a horrible, bloody, and violent death. (In Buffy, they did both with the Willow story line)
I just wanted all your thoughts on this. I am not trying to bash Xena (or Buffy, for I love that show too). In fact, I am a huge fan of the show.
Thank you for your time Robinton
|
|
|
Post by vickiej on Aug 20, 2012 16:14:20 GMT -6
Interesting. However like to point as far as women's clothes, there are far many more fully dresed than not.And dress usually fits the role-Aphrodite 's costume expresses her sensuality and sexiness, whereas Cyrene for example is dressed like a Mom. As for the subtext-like to point out that many lesbians love the show too, nothing conclusive from that one example. And,many women are involved in heterosexual relationships long before they eventually come out as lesbian. And how about the heterosexuals that met horrid,violent deaths-like Marcus, Petracles,and Joxer? Its Xena's past that led t her death, not her relationship with Gabrielle. Good to see a new topic,lets hope for lots of replies.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 20, 2012 17:24:06 GMT -6
Yes, Xena's mother is depicted as being fully dressed. But Xena's mother is not a warrior either. From a feminist point of view, I find it insulting that the females that share most of the screen time AND the females that do fight seem to have less clothing on then the other women in the show.
Another point in my favor (I hope) is the episode entitled "Lyre Lyre, hearts on Fire" (Season 5, episode 10) In that episode, Xena is in what appears to be a bathing room. One can imagine it would be fairly hot and humad in that room. All the amazons are in bra and panties. Xena and her mother are fully clothed. I have often wondered if that was done because the actress that played Xena's mother was older and Lucy Lawless herself was pregnant. These two body types are not what western civilization would call desirable.
As far as the idea of Xena and Gabrielle is concerned... I would like to point out that this is my PERSONAL point of view. I do not think that it would be right to call them lesbians because they fall in love with each other. They have had histories with men. Wouldn't this put them more into the category of Bi-sexual rather than lesbian?
The death of Xena: Yes, heterosexual men do get killed, in almost every episode, rather violently. I am not even going to argue that point. Historically, lesbians that are depicted in American TV usually end their relationship in one of two ways: Either one turn’s evil and starts killing people OR one of the partners gets killed in a violent and bloody death. Had Gabrielle not been female, had it instead been Gabriel, I would not be typing this now. The writers decided to kill off one partner in a female/female relationship in a sudden, bloody, and very violent way.
Also, I would like to point out that I did say most of the people I talked to... The QRC (that is the LGBT student group at my University) is run by a lesbian woman who legally changed her name to Xena. So, not all lesbians dislike the show. Most of the ones I talked to disliked it because of that final episode. To put it another way that might make my point more clear: Had the series ended with the episode entitled "Many Happy Returns" (Season 6, episode 19) where Xena and Gabrielle fly off into the sunset, they would have found that more acceptable than the violent death of either Xena or Gabrielle.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 20, 2012 17:39:25 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 20, 2012 17:43:19 GMT -6
I don't see Xena & Gabrielle as a couple. And I haven't bothered to analyze the show. I loved the show for many reasons, one of which is because Xena was a strong female figure. I also loved the first few seasons of 'Alias' too. I wish there were more strong women on TV and at the movies.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 20, 2012 18:03:10 GMT -6
Thank you for the welcome! ;D There is a lot of debate on if Xena and Gabrielle were a couple. Some people do not see a relationship... The writers did leave a lot of subtext in the show that allow people to read what they want to read. It is really up to the viewer. I was not saying that they are definitly a couple. Sorry for the confussion.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 20, 2012 18:18:09 GMT -6
No need to apologize, I was just stating where I stand on the relationship. I wasn't being defensive or snarking at your post.
My apologizes if I gave you the wrong impression.
|
|
|
Post by Phalon on Aug 21, 2012 7:20:57 GMT -6
Great topic....but shoot, I've run out of time.
I'll comment later (I plan to anyway), but it was interesting reading this morning.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 21, 2012 15:32:50 GMT -6
On another line but same topic, I would also wonder if the parts of Xena where Xena and Gabrielle kiss or share a bath is done because it is true to the characters and the moment, or if it was done for the enjoyment of men.
Looking at these times in the show, one could make the argument that these parts are meant purely for the enjoyment of the male viewers, not because it was true to the story.
Just a thought
|
|
|
Post by stepper on Aug 21, 2012 18:47:44 GMT -6
You could also say those moments were intentional and calculated - the point being to mess with your head. This only works until the day TPTB (the powers that be) resolve the question. Thus, you have situations such as Gabrielle gets married but it lasts less than a few minutes.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 21, 2012 23:10:19 GMT -6
In my humble opinion, there is a fundamental problem with your argument.
You seem to be under the assumption that the motivation behind certain parts of movies or TV is soley based on the ideals of good story telling and/or plot devices.
This is NOT the case. Old white men in America hold 90%+ of the power. This includes TV and movies. (We will call it visual entertainment) Because of this power dynamic, things are put into place that helps brainwash women and men into thinking this is the norm and expected.
That being said, things are put into visual entertainment (movies, TV, video games, theater) that are there soley for the purpose of the "typical" male fantasy. Women see this and believe that is what men want. Men see this and believe that this is what they need.
It is possible that these images of Xena and Gabrielle kissing are in the show simply for the entertainment of men. While I have not watched the Hercules series, I imagine that Herc was not kissing other men (or his friend that traveled around with him). If you decide that Gab and Xena were just really good friends, and they share a kiss at certain times to express that friendship, why didn't Herc? (This could make me look like a total ass, as I have never watched the series and for all I know, they did)
I would argue that no, the Xena/Gabrielle kissing was there for the total enjoyment of the male viewers, not because it was a part of the story.
Another argument that has been brought up that I think should be looked at is that Xena and Gabrielle are in a different time period than us; that they should not be judged by modern values. I have to say that argument should fly right out the window now. We do not really know when Xena is living. She know Goliath personally.... That puts her back into around 1023-1018 BCE. Xena also pulled the sword of Aurthur from the stone. That puts her around 500AD... Now think of the social changes that have happened in America (or your country) in the past 60 years... Xena lives for well over 1000 years. A lot changes during that time. We do not know what is the societal norm for her.
|
|
|
Post by vickiej on Aug 22, 2012 7:43:15 GMT -6
Good point about the historical contradictions. Might also add that the Trojan war and the Rome of Julius Caesar were separated by centuries. Someone posted on another Xena board that we should see the Xenaverse asan alternate or parallel world,not "our" ancient world. Does make sense. Not sure I totally agree with you about male domination of TV. One time was true but there's been some changes. Quite a few women played major roles in production of the show, writing, etc. And from what I know about, Lucy don't think she would have accepted anything that was nothing but exploitation. Yes, there is her role as Lucretia in Spartacus- but what she did there was play the role of a decadent,amoral noblewoman in a realistic manner. IOW, villains have to be portrayed as bad.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 22, 2012 8:18:01 GMT -6
I do see Xena in an alternative world... I can not imagine that in ancient Greece they are singing the song "War" by Edwin Starr. We can judge Xena with modern values because the writers implemented modern values into the show.
It would be improper to put modern values on a show like Spartacus or Amistad, because those shows are attempting to show life in those time periods.
I have to hold to my beliefs that even in modern day times, women are still being exploited. Look at billboards of models. These are women that are suppose to show what is beautiful in today's modern western civilization. I just went to the store; while in the check out line, I saw the cover of a girls magazine called "17". The cover promised young women that if they follow certain steps, they can have "younger looking skin" and talked about certain diets. These are 17 year old women! They already have younger looking skin, because THEY ARE YOUNG!
Anyways, my point being is that even in this century, women are being told what they need to look like. This is not coming from other women, this is coming from the old white men that hold the power base of today's society.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 22, 2012 15:18:15 GMT -6
TPTB have commented that the fans could look at the show as different episode arcs being from various parallel universes, and not all from one world.
I think that with the changes of female equality, men are being exploited more and more recently. Women have their own porn now that deals with more romance along with the sex. Some of the cable/satellite shows are beginning to show full frontal male nudity. There are strip clubs geared for women.
I'm not sure that some men will ever see women as anything other than sex objects to be exploited. You'd think since they have mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, they'd treat other women with more respect so that their female family members would in turn get respect from other men.
I don't think exploitation will ever go away completely. But it might not be as open and wide spread as it was.
|
|
|
Post by vickiej on Aug 22, 2012 16:43:33 GMT -6
I wonder if some of the nude male material might attract more gay men than women. All some of this does is prove that some women can be just as shallow as some men. You're right much better than it was,less exploitation(and a lot better for a lot of other oppressed groups). Still a long ways to go. To tell the truth though I am more worried about what some of our political leaders want to do to women and gays than I am about what Hollywood does.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 22, 2012 17:07:05 GMT -6
You know, I never thought of that. The nude men aren't for women, but for gay men. Now that makes sense. Who cares what women want. Personally, they all could keep their clothes on as far as I'm concerned. It isn't needed to tell a story.
|
|
|
Post by stepper on Aug 22, 2012 18:06:18 GMT -6
In my humble opinion, there is a fundamental problem with your argument. Really? You got me there. If this was not true, if it was not my opinion that X:WP was good story telling, I would not be on the Whoosh Xena forum. For me, X:WP included some great story telling that served no purpose other than advancing a great show. X:WP had a substantial following which included a strong and vocal following of ladies who preferred the sub-text angle. Perhaps the scenes you mentioned were inserted for them? (Every time it happened the original Renaissance board lit up with the are they/aren’t they argument.) Speaking for myself, X&G swapping spit was not why “I” watched the show. Were some scenes inserted for some prurient interests? I don’t know. The five naked dancing Gabrielles could fall in that category without straining the imagination. Was the hot tub scene in A Day In The Life inserted to satisfy someone’s whim or was it logical that they’d want to find a way to relax at that point in time? (I loved the splash fight scene.) Was Gabrielle’s shrinking clothing a nothing more than an imitation bikini for men? Does it matter? To whom? It has been more than ten years since I got P/O’ed at Friend In Need II and no amount of discussion has convinced me that killing Xena made a modicum of sense. But does it matter? In the end, quality show or not, plot device or not, good story telling or not, it’s about money. And that’s why Hercules never kissed Iolaus. Any suggestion of this would have gotten the suggester fired, fried, and filleted. Legendary Journeys would have tanked faster than Ellen DeGeneres’ ABC Sitcom. They weren’t interested in making a statement (and going off the air) – they were interested in making money. That’s why you see what you see on TV. People watch ‘it’ and companies pay to advertise what ever ‘it’ is. Bad shows don’t get watched, don’t draw advertisers, and sometimes don’t air more than a couple of weeks before being cut. I say it is business decisions that drive what you see. Okay, your turn. I’m sort of talked out.
|
|
|
Post by vickiej on Aug 22, 2012 19:51:03 GMT -6
Afraid you are right. So many good shows gone because they didn't bring in the money. Never mind us viewers who loved them. BTw, feel as you about Friend in Need.
|
|
|
Post by Phalon on Aug 23, 2012 4:37:42 GMT -6
Now, there's a mouthful of truth, Vickie. It makes me shudder to think about what could be in store.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 23, 2012 17:03:50 GMT -6
Please forgive me if some of this does not make much sense... It does in my head... But I am working on only 3 hours of sleep.
Is racism gone? Has it been abolished in the United States? Some might argue that yes, it has... But that hard sad truth of the matter is that racism is still alive today as it was in the 1950's. It has just taken on a new form. Very few people are going to admit that they do not like a person based on the color of their skin, that would just cause social pressure on that person.
Is sexism gone? Hardly... It has done the same thing racism has done. It has gone underground. Everywhere you look in today's American (are you all American, BTW?) you will see the shameless exploitation of women. Billboards, magazines, posters, movies, and TV shows.
In your very well put counter-argument, you talked about your views, your opinions, how you took the kissing... With all due respect, I would ask that you put you out of the picture. Watch the show (or any show/movie) with an eye for sexism. Ask yourself if the women is dressed like that because it is a needed part of the story, or if she is dressed like that because she looks sexy.
I do not know how to quote you, but in your counter-argument, you stated that they (the makers of Xena and Herc) were not trying to make a statement. I disagree with that. All types of social media are made to make a statement. I really dislike all inclusive statements like that, but I believe this is one that needs to be made. The message within the media will be very different, but the message is there. Even if the message is "I made this movie/TV show/game/etc to express that I am not giving any type of statement!" that is still a statement.
My goal, as a self proclaimed feminist, is to dig into that social media and hopefully get people who want to listen a chance to think about it.
Is Xena: Warrior Princess show feminist ideals and values? Yes, I believe it does. But I also think that they did things to it to appeal to a male base.
Again, sorry if some of this stuff does not make the best of sense... I am REALLY tired. I am off to bed now... nighty night
PS - Hopefully my arguments are not offensive to anyone
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 24, 2012 21:35:11 GMT -6
As I said, I recently graduated from Portland State University with my BS in Psychology with a minor in women studies.
I do not consider myself a feminist fanatic. In point of fact, I tend to despise fanatics of any type. I find that if you focus so hard on any single topic and have closed your mind off to other viewpoints, other beliefs, you lose that much of your wisdom and intelligence. An open mind is a mind willing to learn. Anne McCaffery once said something like "A mind not willing to accept new idea's is a mind that becomes stagnant".. I believe in that.
Again, is the TV show Xena a show that promotes feminist ideals? I think so. I see a show that follows the story of a strong woman who is firm in her beliefs and ideals. This woman does not and will not allow people (men or women) try and tell her what she can or cannot do.
But again, Xena is also created by men (and I am NOT saying that men are evil creatures that will all try to exploit women at any chance they get). Because it was created by men, they attempted to add sex appeal to it to bring in a large male audience. (By that own admission, one could make the argument that the creator wanted to bring in men to a largely feminist show)
I think, if you watch the show, not for the entertainment value, but with an eye for exploitation, you will see some exploitation happening.
Thank you for reading this
|
|
|
Post by vickiej on Aug 25, 2012 8:10:40 GMT -6
Then again, you could see some exploitation of men too.Joxer is presented as a bungling idiot, a stereotype that is often present in popular culture, like some old comics and sitcoms. Xena sometimes plays along with men that are her enemies,like Draco in SOTP, or Caesar.Uses feminine wiles to get her way. And how about kissing Hercules in Prometheus to knock him out and get the sword? Lets face it, I don't think the public, as far as physical appearance goes, wants to see unattractive male actors anymore than it would unattractive women. And certainly Kevin Smith, Kevin Sorbo,Bobby Hosea fall into that category.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 25, 2012 8:58:51 GMT -6
You are, of course, very right. And feminism does address the exploitation of men.
In fact, feminism makes the argument that when women are exploited, it hurts men just as badly as women. When men are exploited, it hurts both sexes. Feminism is not just about "How does this effect women?"
When Xena (or Gabrielle) use their "feminine Wiles" to get something they want, that does take away from the general feminist theme that the show seems to be putting on display.
Again, do I think that Xena is a "bad" show for doing this? Not at all... I love Xena. In a very unfeminist and straight male viewpoint, I loved some the of "sexier" moments of the show. (Like the three naked dancing Gabrielle's. That was funny as hell!)
I do not believe that you could make a case for Joxer though... (from a feminist point of view) He is not built like Ares or Herc. He is a small pasty white guy with no real muscles. Even when he was swinging around in the tree's naked, I do not think he was put there as a sex symbol. He is the comic relief...
I could be wrong, but I do not think feminism really addresses that.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 25, 2012 18:21:49 GMT -6
Ares may have Joxer beat in the physical department, but I'd still take Joxer over Ares any day of the week.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 25, 2012 18:32:06 GMT -6
Ares may have Joxer beat in the physical department, but I'd still take Joxer over Ares any day of the week.
I am a heterosexual male, but I can also look at the male form and pass my own personal judgments. In my own personal judgment, I would like to know what you consider sexy or attractive in a male. If I were a woman, Joxer would be the LAST male on Earth I would want as a boyfriend/husband. To put it another way, in the episode "Been There, Done That" (Season 3, episode 2) I cheered when Joxer was killed. The first time I saw the series (I watched them in order on DVD for the first time) I cheered, I was over the moon, I was ecstatic! I so wanted Joxer out of the picture. The Joxer character actually annoyed me.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 25, 2012 18:53:10 GMT -6
I'm not going by the outside appearance. If I was for looks alone, and didn't care how I was treated, Ares, hands down. But Ares is a backstabbing, abusive, disloyal jerk. Joxer may be a klutz, and not a good protector/provider, but he is loyal, and caring, and a decent human being. I'd choose him over Ares any day.
I wouldn't choose him over Iolaus or Hercules though.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 25, 2012 18:58:26 GMT -6
From the VERY few episodes of Herc that I have seen, he seems just way to nice. That would get to me after while. I want someone who is willing to go toe to toe with me. I want someone who isn't always going to agree and someone that I can have an actual verbal fight with and not have to worry about getting my feelings hurt or hurting their feelings. Iolaus, on the other hand, is willing to go tow to toe with you. I could see going after him.
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 25, 2012 20:17:07 GMT -6
I don't want to fight. I want to get along. My Dad was verbally abusive, and if Mom didn't like the way things were he'd tell her, "There's the door, don't let it hit you in the a$$ on the way out." And she knew she wouldn't be allowed to take us kids with her when she went. Plus, she wasn't allowed to have a job, so she had no money in which to leave with.
So, I refuse to put up with that crap. I want my home to be a peaceful refuge, with a husband who is a good friend who works out a compromise without a brouhaha. I've walked on eggshells long enough, and I won't do it again. And I was born with my Dad's stubborn streak, so I can dish it out. We went toe to toe many a time when I got older, and I don't want that in a marriage.
Which is one of the reasons why I'm still single. And why I'd take Joxer over Ares.
|
|
|
Post by robinton on Aug 25, 2012 22:19:31 GMT -6
Ok, I think there was a misunderstanding. I would be a horrible feminist if I thought that the domination of a woman (or man) is a good thing. I think what you went through with your father is a horrible thing.
When I say have an argument, I meant more along the line of... *thinking* ...
If I believed the world was flat and my wife knew the world was round, we could have an argument about that topic. We could go toe-to-toe on our different beliefs, our proof of these beliefs, and our defense about these beliefs.
I think if I was married to someone like Herc and told him that the world was flat, he may tell me he does not think that is correct, but I could be right. Iolaus, on the other hand, would be willing to go toe to toe with me.
That make better sense? I hope so
|
|
|
Post by Mini Mia on Aug 25, 2012 22:30:40 GMT -6
I think that what you are calling 'fighting,' I would call 'bantering?' A light-hearted bickering? Not heated, or serious? Those can be fun. When you're in a good mood and want to 'play-fight.' But serious, heated arguments, I can do without. You keep mentioning Iolaus, and his type of 'bantering' can be fun.
Sorry if my post singed any hairs, I didn't really mean for it to come off so fierce. But it is a sore spot for me. My Dad died in 2007, and I'm really trying to let go of the anger, but I have his stubbornness, so there you go.
|
|